bi22le
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:04 PM |
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How to take a hair pin. Lesson 1.
Following my on board vid I will be investing in a book and many a video watching to see how the pros do it. For now I want to do a little test.
Below I have 2 different lines to take Druids at Brands Hatch Indy. Its corner 2 on the circuit and is following a medium straight. Exit is onto a
short squirt straight. What is the fastest line. Not average speed or any particular point, the overall quickest way to complete the fastest lap in a
se7en. A, B or other?
 
how to take a hair pin
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
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Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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olimarler
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:16 PM |
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For qaulifying i would always use the later turn it gives you a far better run down the hill!!
I would use this in the race to cut inside a car in front down to the left hander
The first I would use in racing to cause more of an issue for competitor to overtake.
Cheers
Oli
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ashg
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:27 PM |
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the right hand method looks typical of a formula one driver, its the method that causes the most crashes if you go for the inside line when you dont
really have it or cant push your opponent wide.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
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Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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minitici
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:41 PM |
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Certainly for sprints, where you don't have to worry about cars nipping up the inside, method B is preferable.
You are less likely to get power understeer as you tend to get the majority of turning done before getting hard on the power.
With my BEC single seater I try and unsettle the rear end (get weight transfer to the front) going into a tight hairpin and then I can get the power
on early and 'steer' the car on the throttle.
If I tried method A - I would not be able to get onto the throttle on the corner - if I did the car would understeer.
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jps
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
Following my on board vid I will be investing in a book and many a video watching to see how the pros do it. For now I want to do a little test.
Below I have 2 different lines to take Druids at Brands Hatch Indy. Its corner 2 on the circuit and is following a medium straight. Exit is onto a
short squirt straight. What is the fastest line. Not average speed or any particular point, the overall quickest way to complete the fastest lap in a
se7en. A, B or other?
how to take a hair pin
I have never driven competitively, but have raced a bicycle a fair bit. Cornering can be crucial in 'criterium' bike racing - not least
because on a bike the repeated acceleration to get back up to speed has a cumulative effect on the legs, not a problem in a car!!!
Anyway, what i've learnt is that the quickest way to corner is in such a way as to carry the maximum momentum OUT of the corner. So
'flattening out' the corner is always the best option - i.e your 'A'.
I would imagine cars are far more complicated though - often you are approaching a corner much more quickly than you can actually get round it. So
braking becomes an issue. In addition you have to get the car to actually turn in - which will depend on the weight balance, downforce, etc. Then
there's how the car behaves as you accelerate whilst turning - FWD and RWD behaving very differently of course.
It's easy to see benefits of different driving styles in an exaggerated way by watching rally footage - see how a MK2 Escort is piloted around a
corner by Hannu Mikkola compared to how he'd drive an Audi Quattro round the same corner...
And you need to think about your entry to the next corner - how does that link to your exist of the last corner...
Edit - i started writing that before the other posts were up. All the above just reiterates what i've said.
Obviously there's a big difference between lapping quickly and holding a position in a race...
[Edited on 26/4/13 by jps]
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martyn1137
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 12:59 PM |
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IMHO having driven it as a sprint a few times many years ago probably a combination of the two is the quickest if you are on your own. In comparison
to your plan A go slightly deep on way in, make the apex just after centre point to give quickest line out. Thats if you have not given yourself a
mighty fright at the previous corner paddock hill bend and screwed your concentration. Until you go out on track you will not appreciate the change in
gradient and blind turn in point is awesome sdcary but then becomes fun once you have it maastered.
If you were racing or have other cars around you plan B will have someone stuff it down the inside line on the way in on you all day long.
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Slimy38
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 02:54 PM |
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Now I write this post with a prior warning, that this is based on Forza video game experience rather than real life. It's the nearest
I've got to a trackday in my limited driving career!
My mate and I differ when it comes to cornering. I favour line A, he favours line B. However, I have noticed it's also to do with the type of
car. If we're driving something 'point and squirt', for example a Lotus, line B sacrifices overall corner speed for the ability to
get the power down early and start accelerating. For something heavier, such as an American muscle car, line A works better to maintain the overall
speed and lessen the need for fast acceleration. This also ties in with the Lotus's ability to turn much harder and therefore be able to do a
line B turn. A muscle car is simply less nimble and would have to be going much slower to attempt the same line, whereas a wider sweeping turn is much
more suited to the 2 ton beast.
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PAUL FISHER
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 03:55 PM |
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Well done bi22le for for posting this up, I just love debates like this, Ive spoke about this with other drivers many times before, I would go line
"B" for the fastest, its gets you on the power earlier, slower in, but faster out, Ive only driven Brands a couple of times, but its a bit
like shell oils corner at Oulton and the hairpin at Mallory, which ive done both many times, but only on track days, but if in race conditions, and I
was defending my line, I would take a nice and tight line in, but it would be good for some input from race guys on here for what they think, as a
racing driver I am not 
This is a video I did at Mallory last year ar the RGB on the hairpin, at bit tighter hairpin than Brands, and most cars are defending so are going
very tight in, but interesting all the same?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXAs2YFapKQ&list=UUFVhYyJ8l-7tyAOq6potitQ&index=2
[Edited on 19/05/04 by PAUL FISHER]
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bi22le
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 04:41 PM |
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Interesting comments and to reiterate the point its straight out sprint speed. Not race conditions where you have to defend lines.
What's interesting is that my gut feeling is A but following the way they placed the turn in and apex cones on my latest track day (put out in
style B line) the car felt quicker. I suffered understeer and the corner seemed to last forever. I could not of done line B before the set up the pro
comp set up as it would never of made the turn in.
On all previous days I have been on apex cone was far more mid corner and most drivers were doing line A. This time most were doing line B. The thing
is that the most recent day was full of green and inexperienced drivers unlike previous days.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 04:55 PM |
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It's got to be B, you have reduced the bend as are exiting at an angle so can be on the power earlier.
You can brake harder than you can accelerate, so as the rear becomes light you will slightly slide through the entrance to then bend, unlike road
driving you should be breaking hard through the bend until you hit the apex to get minimum time around.
So plot with the cars rear slipping out slightly then staying straight on exit, whatever happens the bend cannot be turned in a uniform in/out fashion
as the diagram shows.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 07:04 PM |
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I have only ever raced at two circuits with hairpins and used line 1 at Ignliston but at Knockhill used a wider version of line 2 ( not
completely clipping the inside of corner) because of the bumpier surface on the inside of the corner.
It really depends on a few things -- what the surface is like and how well it positions you for the next corner and power grip
characteristics of the car.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 26/4/13 at 08:20 PM |
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Racing lines are much more complex than just the bend itself, as already stated, fighting for position is a contributing factor. Just as importantly
for single laps is to take Into account the previous and preceding bends, conditions, topography, grip levels, type of car in both power, drive and
weight.
In the case of druids, I've only driven it on one trackday and I was amazed how late the coned entry marker was. It lead me to conclude this was
mainly based on topography, as the braking is up hill you can take advantage of gravity assisting and of course it will also assist with a fast exit
and entry to graham hill where speed can be carried on to the back straight.
Mistral Motorsport
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PAUL FISHER
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| posted on 2/5/13 at 10:36 PM |
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RGB from the weekend video, the lead car, a GTR Spire takes line B most of the time, appears to get out of the corner quicker?and the other GTR takes
line A and appears to struggle to get the power down out of the corner???, discuss???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQZCKdicJOw
[Edited on 19/05/04 by PAUL FISHER]
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yellowcab
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| posted on 2/5/13 at 10:47 PM |
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As above, never any competitive racing experience - but on the hundreds of trackdays I've done, I've always used line B
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davidinhull
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| posted on 25/5/13 at 05:57 PM |
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I wouldn't call it serious racing, but in gokarts with others who are also there for fun (- non of us know what we are doing in other words)
line B worked well, although, this did avoid a seriously slippy area of track- it did however seen to give greater speed out of the hairpin, which in
the karts we were in with poor acceleration made a substantial difference
So I'd say B
David
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