motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 16/9/13 at 06:06 PM |
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S1000RR, ZX10R or something else... racing people
Is anyone out there fitting/fitted an S1000RR into a car. I note that billet sumps are now available from our USA cousins, race cams and pistons (at
an incredible cost) from Motodex and the HP BMW ECU can be 'opened'. So, it looks workable, who's doing it? Anyone got one for sale,
with loom, ECU and TB's ready to run?
I'm coming from the angle of a single seater, with only two races to the end of the season, it's time to think about 2014. Currently
running a race 5VY Yamaha R1 which has proved to be incredibly reliable, but not quite up there with the new engines (on paper). Having already taken
another shed load of Championship trophies in 2013, would be great to 'move up' to something closer to 200 BHP and play, forgetting the
pots in 2014. So...
Tempt me, educate me, inform me. Destination vehicle is a Jedi, it pulls over 2G in the corners, so the bombproof baffle plate 5VY option has always
scored. Life is short, need to play, need more.
What would you fit?
2011 onwards ZX10R (on paper) looks great, but does it need a sump, etc.
GSXR1000 seems to have stalled in terms of development.
BMW S1000RR looks to be the candidate at the moment (if I can find one).
I could widen the chassis rails and go up a class, but that means either:
Hayabusa, everybody runs the 1500-1600 (not) locost options. Old engine, but seem goods if your pockets are deep.
ZZR1400, looks good on paper out of the box, but not too many tuning options. Muzzy do a dry sump at least, so oiling issues look OK. Yorkshire dude
has a recent one on ebay right now.
Your thoughts please guys.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 16/9/13 at 07:26 PM |
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what about the latest blades? or is the lack of grunt a slight issue? they seem very poular amongst the RGB racers and doing well on the reliability
front i believe. but again a costly install!
ive heard (whether true or not) that a few s1000rr's have been going bang and not overly reliable.
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 16/9/13 at 08:05 PM |
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Honda is an option, but again, I believe Honda hasn't made huge leaps in recent years. I'm happy to stand corrected that the latest Honda
CBR rocketship is a 200 BHP monster, but I don't get the vibe at tye moment. I've seen a few out there, but not the latest versions.
I'm aware of their reliability, also that there are plenty of people pushing them as the panacea of goodness (such as AB) and in the case of AB
the knowledge and helpfullness to go with it.
I came up against a Jedi in NI powered with a fairly recent Honda unit, sodding huge great lump of an airbox/injector unit towering above the motor
that really didn't go well with the rear bodywork. I also used to sprint a GSXR1000 unit in a 7 against a similar modern injection Honda
equipped car, no real advantage/disadvantage either way, except that I consumed far more units than he.
It's just that on paper the ZX10R and S1000RR units look lovely. Exploding experimental engines is OK if you're bored of collecting
trophies, as I am now.
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imp paul
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| posted on 16/9/13 at 08:05 PM |
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i was told s1000 has a chedder type of gearbox. so not so good in a car ,also told by a rgb racer, that late blade engine has a gear that breaks up on
the end of the crank. so you have to fit new crank every time it poops its self lol 
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daniel mason
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| posted on 16/9/13 at 08:21 PM |
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that was on the 08's i think and honda do a factory recall to upgrade foc. the 09's onwards seem bulletproof
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Andy B
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| posted on 17/9/13 at 12:46 AM |
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Based on experience in general people have always come to us asking the wrong questions, it's always bhp, bhp, bhp. The question really should
be for our application should be how much torque. I ran several massive bhp engines tuned to bsb spec in sidecars that frankly were shite unless you
were doing between 10 and 12 k and unfortunately most mere mortals can't keep the motor boiling like that .
In looking at the latest crop of 1000cc motors I had the same choice to make as everyone else and it goes something like this
Yams - 5vy fantastic motor but not enough grunt nowadays, 4 c8 - simply wouldn't go there, 16 v head is a backward step, power is good but
engine is fragile big time. Later cross plane engine is a symptom of - if we can't make it more powerfull well make it easier to ride- fine in a
bike but don't make for a particularly great car engine.
Zx10 - big power, reasonable torque, wacky ratios but fine for chain drive, high output shaft makes it a hard front engine install but really low
pressure crap lube system and quite agricultural in design
Gsxr again reasonable power and torque but as you have found push hard bang - been particularly bad in rgb this year
BMW - big big bhp, reasonable torque but really soft box , forget trying to hack the ecu - you will lose a season trying to bring it all on line, junk
the stock set up and use mbe, jury is out on oiling and motors cost big so I would rather not be the one to find out the hard way, throttle set up is
a pain and to be fair if it ain't connected directly to my foot I don't trust it!
Blade
Yup some 08s have soft crank so buy 09 on, stock will render 170bhp at wheel on a good pipe, with 84 plus ft lb torque, smoothest slipper clutch ever
will make you faster in the dry and a god in the wet, in a front engine car 165 bhp at wheel is achievable . My first 08 did 3 seasons, and
replacement has done two 24 oil filters and changes and 3 clutches is the total outlay on the two motors
Terry Everall commissioned a breathed on unitfor the Westfield speed series 185 at wheel and a total monster,his previous steed was a 1500 busa and
before this a 300 bhp duratec. This season he has had 14 races, 13 wins, 8 new lap records and 4 overall FTDs and is faster everywhere than the
previous two motors, check out you tube " terry Everall ftd" from 3 sisters. The previous record here had stood for years. He did nt
believe the 998 could do this and I had to work real hard to convince him to go this route. Air box issue is just a lack of forethought on install as
I can get the whole lot under a Westy bonnet that we had raised 18 mm.
Busa and zzr1400 good strong motors but expensive and heavy, with the development in the 1000 cc class i don't think you need the complexity to
get the job done and would back a really well sorted1000 against them.
These are obviously just my own findings and opinions but at present for me it would be the blade every time
Best regards
Andy
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progers
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| posted on 17/9/13 at 07:43 AM |
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I have no issue with what Andy has said above other than his misinformed comments on the GSXR.
I have run GSXR1000 in RGB for 3 years and had no issues other than a worn dog in a gearbox. The "failures" that Andy refers to are due to
poor motors (i.e. they weren't healthy before they went near the car - MK) or people had run them with the wrong design of wet sump (MNR).
I have noticed more than 4 blade engines get a death rattle (knackered crank) this year though. although that may be limited to 08 engines.
Like all BECs, the life of the engine is down to the quality of the installation and getting the oiling right. There is no reason why this can't
be achieved with ZX10, GSXR or Blade. I think the ZX10 would give you the most power, although it can be lethargic below 8K. The jury is really out on
the BMW motor though as I have not seen one yet that has been successfully used in a BEC. You would risk blowing a lot of cash in that direction.
Cheers
- Paul
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MK9R
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| posted on 17/9/13 at 09:57 AM |
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I'm going zx10 with the new car, a lot if this is down to cost as I have picked 2 up for the price of 1 CBR. There's no doubt the CBR
produces the power but the ZX can be up there to. There have been a lot of CBR's die in RGB this year, they do seem fickle to oil pressure, any
fluctuations and they go bang (I know this can be said about all bike engines but the CBR just seems a little more susceptible). The blade death
rattle has been seen a lot this season, the gear teeth break of the crank mean a scrap crank and new one is costly. This is supposed to only effect
08's but when you are looking for an engine or a crank there is no way of telling what year it is as it was related to the chassis number
(please correct me if I'm wrong andy). Personally I've seen enough blades go pop, coupled with the higher expense to push me down the
kwacker route.
Paul has proven the gsxr route in a rear engine car, but I think Danny (mk) has proven that without some serious sump redesign it doesn't look
good in a front engine car.
Regards the 5vy engine, its down on current 1000's power but it been a pretty reliable engine for me, cheap to buy and repair and makes the best
noise out of all of them ;-) 4c8 certainly goes well if sorted, but they are a little weak and suffer if you can't keep temps down
[Edited on 17/9/13 by MK9R]
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 17/9/13 at 11:37 AM |
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It appears that I am not alone here, pondering where to go.
I have no experience of running the Honda (in a car), apart from an old 919 that my Westfield started with many years back. The bikes themselves are
about as exciting as laminating GRP, but yes, AB your words are good, useful and not entirely unknown to me. The old Blade was exchanged for a K2-6
GSXR1000 and (at one point a K2 GSXR750), the result took many trophies. The older K1-4 GSXR1000 had superb torque, were happy going out to 1070cc,
but consumable.
I'm starting to favour a good chat with AB in his hangar, considering a Honda (clearly the latest engine only). Alternatively, I'm
tempted on the ZX10R route. I rode a 2012 demo ZX10R at Wheels a few weeks back, it's insanely good, though on paper this is a torqueless
wonder.
I've put a screenshot up of a lap at Knockers. With the old 5VY not too bothered about life under 8K, perhaps that should sway me to the
ZX10R.
**Do the 2011-3 ZX10R's need a dry sump, or is a 5VY type baffle plate/flat sump OK???** Anyone with real experience?
Thanks
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sam919
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| posted on 22/11/13 at 08:22 PM |
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I'm having second thoughts about the Busa unit i have, as im not going down the forced induction route anymore im struggling to justify the
extra weight, as i need to keep this to a min. The championships im in there isnt a minimum weight so i can go pretty drastic in this department.
Busa + DS + heavy duty output shaft + ECU for mapping + Clutch slave etc its mounting up the biggest one being the DS and it and all the rest of the
kit for it........, for a similiar output to a CBR/ R1.
There's a couple of ZZR1400 locosts that go well in the NW S + S, but a few years of development to get there by there accounts.
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Pat_T
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| posted on 22/11/13 at 09:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Andy B
Based on experience in general people have always come to us asking the wrong questions,..
...Best regards
Andy
Andy,
have you any experience with any recent Triumph engines? They have stronger torque numbers, but don't make a litre sportsbike...
www.instagram.com/patroclueus
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Hugovdb
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| posted on 23/11/13 at 11:51 AM |
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I have kind of a differant choice to make. My name is Hugo, I am from the Netherlands and I am going to build a 7 next year. My problem is the
following: The rules in the Netherlands are such that you have to pay lots of money to be able to get it on the road (even after getting IVA in
England, wich must be done also). Its basicly due to weight and power. More power more money to pay, more weight > also pay more.
So my question is, what lightweight engine is verry tunable? CC doesnt matter, so it can be a 1300cc with more NM but low HP.
Sorry for my English.
Cheers,
Hugo
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hkp57
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| posted on 24/11/13 at 09:22 AM |
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Has anybody considered using the Honda VFR1200 with the DCT gearbox, around 170bhp standard, good torque from the V4 configuration along with a dual
clutch gearbox where you can run 3 modes, full auto, sports mode auto or a full clutch less manual with buttons.
I have this bike and its a great engine, just not sure how the DCT would cope with the weight.
Would seem to be the perfect engine for a seven, shaft drive without turning the engine 90deg, compact, DCT 6 speed, traction control as standard.
Honda build quality.
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sam919
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| posted on 26/11/13 at 09:30 PM |
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Spoke to AB very intersting chat as usual.....again, must actually buy something from him!!  , last thing was a blade engine about 5 years ago!!
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Phil ashton
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| posted on 17/5/15 at 06:08 PM |
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Hi, if you are still interested I have 4 brand new S1000RR engines. I also have a loom ecu keys dash everything for one of them. Aftermarket loom ecu
etc are available from Alpha racing so the couple I have that are just complete engines are still very usable.
I am keeping one for myself to build a hillcclimb car.
They are 2014 engines with less than 100miles.
Phil
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