sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 04:37 PM |
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Lotus 69 Chassis drawings
Hi
Can anyone point me in the direction of where to find chassis and suspension drawings for a Lotus 69. Doesn't matter whether it's FF,
Formula 3 or whetever even F2. I've searcegd the web and drawn a blank. Even blow apart drawngs would help, but I'm really after detailed
working drawings with dimensions.
Thanks
Richard
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 05:37 PM |
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If you've a legitimate reason for needing them (ie. restoration of an original), then Classic Team Lotus (who keep all the archive drawings and
records from the 'olden days' ) will be your best first port of call.
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sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 07:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
If you've a legitimate reason for needing them (ie. restoration of an original), then Classic Team Lotus (who keep all the archive drawings and
records from the 'olden days' ) will be your best first port of call.
Thanks for the info Sam, but I'm actually building a replica/homage and I don't think they'd be too interested.
Richard
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 09:41 PM |
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Oh, I don't know - I think you'll find their lawyers might be quite interested. 
Seriously, though...
I'd be astonished if you could find detailed working drawings with dimensions, outside of CTL.
Depending on how accurate you want your 'homage' to be, your best bet will be to draw up the known dimensions and components (wheels,
against known wheelbase/track dimensions, FT200 gearbox - a drawing of which is available from Hewland - etc.), then join-the-dots using as much
information as you can glean from photos such as the ones on this website.
You could try being devious and approaching CTL with some story that you are just researching the car, and/or approaching them via Martin Ogilvie, who
is their ex-Lotus-drawing-office technical consultant, and who I know has copies of many original and re-drawn-onto-CAD drawings for the cars.
You could also try contacting Peter Denty Racing (I don't think he has a website, but Google will find you his contact details), who will be
able to supply components like uprights, at a price, and may have other information.
But I think you have to face the fact that anyone who has access to the original information will probably take quite a dim view of someone wanting to
build an accurate replica from detailed original drawings...
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bart
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:00 PM |
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If you can get good pictures and basic scale dimensions . ( this could be done via knowing say tyre size) you could in port to say solid works and
then recreate the car in 3d. This is done all the time in industrial design. All depends how much info and good pics you can get.you will need at
least side plan and end views and cutaways would be good
BE ALERT > BRITAIN NEEDS LERTS
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sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:04 PM |
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I take your point Sam and I must point out that I'm not wanting to replicate the car in every detail. I simply would like to get hold of
dimensions such as overall chassis dimensions, track , wheelbase etc. in order to have some kind of datum to scale the rest of the car from. I have a
substantal collection of detailed photos to enable me to build a passable chassis replica, wishbones etc. I'm collecting some Van Diemen rear
uprights tomorrow which are very close to the originals and the fronts are of course Triumph essentially. I guess a better term for my project is an
Evocation. Many enthusiasts have built such replicas over the years and are usually accepted in the light of their purpose to pay homage to a great
original design and not to pass it off as anything but a homage.
Richard
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bart... this could be done via knowing say tyre size...
I'm sure you will have this information already, but if it helps, the basic dimensions are:
Wheels: 13"x10" front/13"x14" rear
Tyres: 8.00x13" front/11.50x13" rear
O/A length: 150"
O/A width: 72"
O/A height: 37"
Wheelbase: 92.5"
Track: 57" front/58" rear
Bart makes it sound easy though; CAD isn't yet at the stage where it can scan in a photo, press a button to correct for scale and perspective,
and spit out a dimensioned set of drawings. It's preferable (and usual in industrial reverse engineering) to 3D scan actual components, feed the
data into CAD as a points cloud, and work from there - but that would take access to an actual car.
Reverse engineering the car into CAD from photos alone takes a lot of skill, knowledge, effort and interpolation, but it can be done.
I tend to work in AutoCAD rather than SolidWorks, but I could do the job for you if you crossed my palm with a sufficiently large quantity of
silver... it would probably end up being cheaper to buy an original car to take measurements off, then selling it on when you've finished,
though!
[Edited on 15/2/15 by Sam_68]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sevaunMany enthusiasts have built such replicas over the years and are usually accepted in the light of their
purpose to pay homage to a great original design and not to pass it off as anything but a homage.
Yes, don't get me wrong - I wasn't being personally antagonistic to your project; so long as you don't attempt to pass the thing off
as an original, I see no issue.
...But convincing the owners of original drawings that your motives are so honest can be difficult!
If your collection of photos is good enough, then the basic dims I've listed above might help.
I've got reasonable 2D drawings of the Triumph uprights (as modified by Caterham for a spherical bearing at the bottom), if it helps. Not
accurate to the last fraction of an inch, but good enough for basic geometry.
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sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by bart... this could be done via knowing say tyre size...
I'm sure you will have this information already, but if it helps, the basic dimensions are:
Wheels: 13"x10" front/13"x14" rear
O/A length: 150"
O/A width: 72"
O/A height: 37"
Wheelbase: 92.5"
Track: 57" front/58" rear
Bart makes it sound easy though; CAD isn't yet at the stage where it can scan in a photo, press a button to correct for scale and perspective,
and spit out a dimensioned set of drawings. It's preferable (and usual in industrial reverse engineering) to 3D scan actual components, feed the
data into CAD as a points cloud, and work from there - but that would take access to an actual car.
Reverse engineering the car into CAD from photos alone takes a lot of skill, knowledge, effort and interpolation, but it can be done.
I tend to work in AutoCAD rather than SolidWorks, but I could do the job for you if you crossed my palm with a sufficiently large quantity of
silver... it would probably end up being cheaper to buy an original car to take measurements off, then selling it on when you've finished,
though!
Sam the dimensions are a great help, thanks. Regarding the 3D CAD I'm an old school draughtsman, trained originally in Architectural draughting
in the 1970's on a parallel motion board. I have recent experience in Graphics Vetor 2D packages sucha s Adobe Illustrator and Corel Draw, but I
haven't got to grips with Solidworks etc as I don't work with it (not and Engineer) so I find it quite daunting. I'll be doing my
design Old Skool 2D and working from the photos I have should give me a close approximation which will suit my ends.
Thanks again
Richard
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sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by sevaunMany enthusiasts have built such replicas over the years and are usually accepted in the light of their
purpose to pay homage to a great original design and not to pass it off as anything but a homage.
Yes, don't get me wrong - I wasn't being personally antagonistic to your project; so long as you don't attempt to pass the thing off
as an original, I see no issue.
...But convincing the owners of original drawings that your motives are so honest can be difficult!
If your collection of photos is good enough, then the basic dims I've listed above might help.
I've got reasonable 2D drawings of the Triumph uprights (as modified by Caterham for a spherical bearing at the bottom), if it helps. Not
accurate to the last fraction of an inch, but good enough for basic geometry.
Thanks Sam, I'd appreciate the drawings it will save me quite a bit of time.
Thanks
Richard
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bart
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:41 PM |
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Did not mean to give impression it was easy but it can be done to a fairly high degree of accuracy. Takes a lot of work though. It's certainly
not automatic. Doing this from a mobile phone so tend to cut things short , gives the wrong impression sometimes. I to could do the job but again
silver would have to cross my palm though not as much as a 69 lotus 
BE ALERT > BRITAIN NEEDS LERTS
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sevaunRegarding the 3D CAD I'm an old school draughtsman, trained originally in Architectural draughting in
the 1970's on a parallel motion board.
Yes, likewise - I'm an Architect by training, of similar vintage, but I updated to AutoCAD at the beginning of the millenium. I can just about
make Solidworks do what I want it to, but I'm still happier working in AutoCAD, and I tend to work up drawings in orthographic projection first,
then model them in 3D if required!
Do you have the facility to read .dwg CAD drawings, or do you want me to send you PDF's of the upright drawings to print out on paper?
Might take me a day or two to get round to it, but U2U me your contact details and preferences.
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bart
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:45 PM |
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Did not mean to give impression it was easy but it can be done to a fairly high degree of accuracy. Takes a lot of work though. It's certainly
not automatic. Doing this from a mobile phone so tend to cut things short , gives the wrong impression sometimes. I to could do the job but again
silver would have to cross my palm though not as much as a 69 lotus
BE ALERT > BRITAIN NEEDS LERTS
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bart....silver would have to cross my palm though not as much as a 69 lotus
Yes, I'm not that expensive! But the rate prices are rising, you could buy a car, scan/measure it, and sell it on for a profit! 
For an 'evocation', 2D drawings working from basic dims and photographs certainly sounds like the way to go though.
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sevaun
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 10:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bart
Did not mean to give impression it was easy but it can be done to a fairly high degree of accuracy. Takes a lot of work though. It's certainly
not automatic. Doing this from a mobile phone so tend to cut things short , gives the wrong impression sometimes. I to could do the job but again
silver would have to cross my palm though not as much as a 69 lotus
Thanks for the offer Bart, but I'll be putting my budget into cost of parts rather than the design side. The outcome of this needs to simply
look right but not necessarily a mm perfect detailed replica. As Sam mentioned a perfect replica could be frowned upon as it would be easy to try and
pass it off as original for commercial gain. My 69 will be accurate at first glance but easily discernable as a copy by afficiandos of the mark.
Richard
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bart
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 11:15 PM |
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I did a quick Google and there are loads of pics of chassis and suspension should be relatively easy to make a "copy" . One word of
caution Chapman chassis are boarder line strong enough for racing let alone for road use so you might want to strengthen it up a bit. Bigger sections
maybe extra bracing for road.
Now I know that will get disproving comments but there I said it. His view was always if it brakes we will make it stronger . If it don't brake
it was to strong !
BE ALERT > BRITAIN NEEDS LERTS
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Sam_68
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| posted on 15/2/15 at 11:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bartChapman chassis are border line strong enough for racing let alone for road use ...
That's fair comment, but you MAY be alright with the 69 on account of it being designed for multiple Formulae... so on the one hand it was
designed for Formula Ford (where it had to be reasonably robust to act as a school car), whilst on the other hand it was stressed for up to 265bhp or
thereabouts with a Cosworth BDG for Formula 2.
Nothing that heavier gauge tube and a bit of extra bracing won't solve, anyway!
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sevaun
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| posted on 16/2/15 at 08:12 AM |
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Actually guys it's being built for hill climbing and sprinting so the original design parameters should be about right!
I am hoping to keep weight to a minimum for obvious reasons although I doubt it will be as light as my current hill climb OMS at 335 Kg!!
Richard
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Mistron
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| posted on 28/2/15 at 05:21 PM |
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I don't have a set of 69 plans, but do have a 1/5th scale GA of the Lotus 18 copied from an original Lotus components drawing dated 7.6.60
(Drawn by R.J. Aris)
And I have the fully dimensioned drawing for the front of the Elan Chassis which is probably the same as most of the earlier Formula cars (althought
the Formula cars will be rose jointed)
Oh, and a set of plans for a Seven S2 and the Eleven, but neither of these are probabably clear enough to actually build a 100% accurate replica
I like plans......
Al
[Edited on 28/2/15 by Mistron]
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daniel mason
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| posted on 28/2/15 at 05:31 PM |
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Seems like you have a few projects on rich?
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sevaun
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| posted on 28/2/15 at 08:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
Seems like you have a few projects on rich?
Your not kidding Dan, I've currently got the OMS hanging from the garage ceiling over the top of the Locost in pretty advanced stages of
renovation and I've now embarked on this!!!
The OMS will have to go - very sadly but that's the way it goes.
We( my boys and I) will be wheeling the Locost out for a bit of fun, sprints and hillclimbs this season so we'll see you about. Looking forward
to seeing the Force in action!
Richard
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daniel mason
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| posted on 28/2/15 at 09:03 PM |
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I was hoping we'd be competing for 2nd place pots all year rich in 5a! Behind that lunatic Dickerson
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sevaun
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| posted on 1/3/15 at 07:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
I was hoping we'd be competing for 2nd place pots all year rich in 5a! Behind that lunatic Dickerson
Oh well I guess you''ll just have to be runner up without me May the Force be with you!
Richard
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