Tugchaser
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 11:58 AM |
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Can I use a Standard Fuelling/ Computer System?
Hello everyone.
I am a newbie here and considering my first build and I will have a number of questions (apologies in advance as they are probably silly/ basic) to
which I cannot find the answers in search.
The first question is about engine packages. I note that when motor choice is talked about here it nearly always includes talk about new throttle
bodies & custom ecu's etc. To my simple mind it appears that manufacturers spend millions developing fuelling systems and they then come
effectively free on second hand motors. For the cost of upgrading a motor I could have purchased a much better motor with standard bits.
I have also heard that some modern systems tie everything from the indicators onward into the computer and that it can be effectively impossible to
move the whole system.
What is the truth. Which motor/ injection/ computer systems can I move and which can't I move? and why do so few of you want to do so?
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Tugchaser]
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 12:25 PM |
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All engines are simple devices, give then air, fuel and spark at the right ratios and the right time and they will work.
But modern computer systems are incredibly complicated and in most cases virtually impossible to hack.
The simplest way is to scrap all the manufacturers injection kit and utilise what the aftermarket has to offer. You can then use a simple ignition
ECU, carbs of a scrap bike and off you go. The bonus is none of the emissions malarkey that robs power.
Take a stock 2 litre Zetec. About 130 bhp in a Mondeo, scrap the Ford stuff, fit aftermarket ignition/carbs and you will get about 160 hp with no
internal mods. getting that 30 bhp using the Ford kit would cost far more than the ignition/carbs and be way more difficult to set up.
As an example my Zetec is a bog standard crate 2 litre Blacktop. MBE ecu, 45 mm Jenvey TB's, Pico injectors, nice exhaust, light flywheel, has
about 175 bhp and goes like a rocket. Does about 34 mpg over a summer. Easy to set up with a laptop and a wide band.
Why keep stuff that 9 out of 10 main dealers cannot understand.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 12:32 PM |
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The oe setup can be used on many engines, there are threads on here about using a zetec, and i believe vauxhall and some others are easier. Obviously
the very latest engines are getting more and more difficult/impossible.
The oem ecu will be set up for a road car with a safe and reliable map to tug about a tintop. It will not be optimised for power, but they are pretty
clever and if you make some mods to the inlet and exhaust it can release a few extra horses, not as much as a dedicated aftyermarket one, but in the
real world it may not be terribly different.
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Tugchaser
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 12:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
Take a stock 2 litre Zetec. About 130 bhp in a Mondeo, scrap the Ford stuff, fit aftermarket ignition/carbs and you will get about 160 hp with no
internal mods. getting that 30 bhp using the Ford kit would cost far more than the ignition/carbs and be way more difficult to set up.
As an example my Zetec is a bog standard crate 2 litre Blacktop. MBE ecu, 45 mm Jenvey TB's, Pico injectors, nice exhaust, light flywheel, has
about 175 bhp and goes like a rocket. Does about 34 mpg over a summer. Easy to set up with a laptop and a wide band.
These are exactly my concerns.
A standard Mondeo comes with free electronics that make 130bhp or I can spend a small fortune making it give me 160bhp or a bigger fortune for 175bhp.
My experience suggests that apart from on track I may well not notice the difference & that if I want more power I could have gone with a bigger
motor anyway - Jag, BMW, Rover, Chevrolet etc etc.
My search did not find the threads on making a Ford ECU work.
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DW100
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 01:22 PM |
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It may help if you are a bit more specific about what engine you are considering as it varies hugely from one to another.
BIG-WASA has put a huge effort into this thread.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/47/viewthread.php?tid=179921
About how to run a Ford zetec on OE management.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 01:23 PM |
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I see exactly where Tug is coming from, why not use the standard ECU (if you can). I don't know how easy it is to use standard ECU on a zetec?
I know my donor engine from the MGZR can be made to run using the original ecu but it is relatively complicated when you consider having to move (or
remove) the immobiliser etc.
The route I took is to use a standard engine, inlet and exhaust and an aftermarket ECU. I guess I saw that as the "easiest option". I
have a known good engine from my old daily driver and a new shiny ECU and flying loom from Emerald plus some quite simple instructions.
I guess it come down to how confident you are with electrics and how much you value your time. 
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Tugchaser
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 01:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DW100
It may help if you are a bit more specific about what engine you are considering as it varies hugely from one to another.
BIG-WASA has put a huge effort into this thread.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/47/viewthread.php?tid=179921
About how to run a Ford zetec on OE management.
The BIG-WASA thread spells out the issues & solutions wonderfully for the Zetec.
Do I gather that the problem is mainly with immobilizers on most engines? I understood that on my Volvo even things like the headlamp units are coded
and that unless the computer recognises them the thing doesn't run properly - although that might be folklore.
As to which engines I am considering the answer is what engines fit in a Westfield sized hole with an automatic gearbox attached that sound nice and
can be driven as a cruiser much more often than as a racing car (ie a road car). To me "sounds nice" always has more than 4 cylinders.
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Tugchaser]
[Edited on 11/8/15 by Tugchaser]
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Slimy38
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 01:53 PM |
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A similar thing exists with the MX5 donor. It is relatively easy to stick with the standard ECU, thankfully Mazda didn't load up their ECU with
anything awkward like immobilisers and CANBUS. So initially I'll be reusing the standard kit just to get it on the road with the minimum of
fuss.
But an aftermarket ECU gives some 'easy' wins, and opens up possibilities for future expansion where the standard ECU just isn't as
flexible.
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DW100
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 04:03 PM |
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The automatic option will limit your choices as many will be controlled by their own electronics that will need to communicate with engine and other
system to work.
You will be looking at older systems to keep things simple.
Car electronics have moved at the same pace as computers.
Most of the systems people are dealing with on here are equivalent to a Windows 95 system or Windows 2000 at best.
Think how far things have moved on since then.
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Stot
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 04:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Tugchaser
Do I gather that the problem is mainly with immobilizers on most engines? I understood that on my Volvo even things like the headlamp units are coded
and that unless the computer recognises them the thing doesn't run properly - although that might be folklore.
Thats right to an extent, everything that controls something in a modern Volvo (headlamp controller included) talks to everything else via can bus and
everything needs to be recognized specifically by serial number by the cars CEM for it to work. Getting around that is next to impossible without a
heck of a lot of R&D and some serious programming talent/luck. You couldn't take an engine from one and run it on the standard ECU without
fitting all the other essential/safety controllers too like ABS, headlamp controllers, CEM, Steering Lock, etc because the ECU will be looking for
them before it thinks of starting.
Cheers
Stot
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Tugchaser
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 06:14 PM |
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My out of date knowledge of this sort of thing is embarrassing.
Please humour me a little more and think of it as explaining computers to your grandad.
I know it isn't what I want but it is, I hope, a good example.
Here is a link for a new 16v Ford Zetec Black Top 1.8 litre Ford engine complete with throttle body, injectors etc for £699.95 which sounds like a
bargain to me and I am using as an example of an engine that has a complete fuel injection system. What do I need to connect to it (other than 12v
& a fuel pump) to get it to run if the makers original ecu was a no go area (which I know BIG_WASA tells me it isn't)? Please don't
just say something like "an custom ecu" but also give me an example of something that would work and what is involved in getting it to do
so.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW-COMPLETE-GENUINE-FORD-1-8L-ZETEC-ENGINE-16V-BLACK-TOP-/171469885110
It seems that "getting it to work" might well cost more than the whole motor!
Thanks for your patience.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 06:34 PM |
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The engines are cheap but fitting them costs. Flywheel, clutch, spiggot bearing, exhaust, hoses, alternator /bracket/idler, modified sump/pickup,
engine mounts. Most people budget £2000 on top of the engine to do a smart job. Then if you are going injection you need a high pressure injection
pump, swirl pot, high pressure fuel lines inc return (don't use rubber - it turns to snot in 3 years) which cost £100 ish, and a low pressure
fuel pump if you don't have one fitted.
Then you have to sort out the fueling and spark. If you have carbs all you need is a suitable manifold and a megajolt/nodiz or similar to supply a
spark.
If you want to use the Ford standard injection you need the help of someone who knows his stuff. Far easier to use aftermarket kit with more access to
upgrades later. The standard Ford injection plenum will not fit into many chassis so that the decision made if it applies to yours.
Mine including the crate Zetec, fitting parts and injection kit cost me approx £4500 but the old engine, carbs, management sold for £3000 so not to
bad especially when the car is so much better with the Zetec.
Get the picture. Its not simply buy off e-bay, bolt in and drive off.
 
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Tugchaser
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 07:19 PM |
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Paul Turner
Your car looks absolutely mint - brilliant.
Thank you for that very full answer. Have you ever been in a position where someone is trying to help you but you don't know how to ask the
question? I am there right now.
I can build the car & I can set up carbs or Bosch Jetronic type fuel injection systems but I am still lost in modern fuel injection systems.
When did systems become something that was so specific to the vehicle that you couldn't move them without new computers? Is there a way - or
date / emissions Cat number etc - to recognise such systems?
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talkingcars
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| posted on 11/8/15 at 10:21 PM |
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I would use the standard system during the build and get through the IVA, then you have a project to upgrade the car.
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Tugchaser
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| posted on 12/8/15 at 07:27 AM |
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Thank you.
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