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Author: Subject: Very high "tickover"
Snuggs

posted on 4/4/16 at 01:59 PM Reply With Quote
Very high "tickover"

I am in the process of installing a 1.6 Blacktop Zetec into a NCF Outbak (Suzuki Vitara).
I have been following Warrens excellent info http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/47/viewthread.php?tid=179921 regarding using the Ford ECU with PATS.
Also found useful info on http://www.auto-tat.co.uk/

The engine is in and runs but revs to 4500 to 5000 rpm with the throttle closed.
If I remove and blank off the IAC then rpm drops to about 1800 and with the throttle closed, the vacuum tries to squash the intake hoses.

I am using a 60mm throttle body on a Rover 820 inlet manifold, Exhaust is 4-2-1 2.25
I believe that the injectors (0280155819) were fitted to the 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 engines.
The ECU I am using is LAAN. I have another ECU (LONG) but I cant get the PATS to accept the key that came with it.

Any help would be appreciated before I go and buy a Megasquirt





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Ugg10

posted on 4/4/16 at 02:28 PM Reply With Quote
Couple of daft questions, always worth asking the obvious -

1) Do you have the MAF sensor in the system and is this off the same engine as the ECU/Injector rail (I had a 2.0l silver top and it would not run on injectors/maf from a 1.8l or combinations of)
2) Is the TPS on the throttle body mounted in the same position i.e. not upside down with the same wiring as on the original, it may be that it either turns the wrong way or is offset or is the throttle body sticking open
3) Have you checked for other inlet leaks
4) Are you using the oem lambda sensor and is this working OK
5) is the idle valve form the ford or the rover the two may work differently





---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com

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r1_pete

posted on 4/4/16 at 02:56 PM Reply With Quote
Do you have flexible pipes between the throttle body and the inlet ports? just wondering as you say the vacuum is squashing them....

Got any pictures of the setup?

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Snuggs

posted on 4/4/16 at 02:57 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Couple of daft questions, always worth asking the obvious -

1) Do you have the MAF sensor in the system and is this off the same engine as the ECU/Injector rail (I had a 2.0l silver top and it would not run on injectors/maf from a 1.8l or combinations of)
2) Is the TPS on the throttle body mounted in the same position i.e. not upside down with the same wiring as on the original, it may be that it either turns the wrong way or is offset or is the throttle body sticking open
3) Have you checked for other inlet leaks
4) Are you using the oem lambda sensor and is this working OK
5) is the idle valve form the ford or the rover the two may work differently



Thanks for the reply, all stuff I should have stated in the original post.

1. MAF is from same vehicle as the ECU. Injectors/rail were supplied with the new engine.
2. TPS is not in the same orientation as the original but I have changed the wiring to compensate. It reads low when closed and high when open. Throttle is smooth and does not stick.
3. Cant see or hear anything obvious but with it running at 4.5k to 5k rpm I cant run it for too long and the induction noise is quite loud
4. Lambda is new aftermarket from ebay. Suspect it is wired correctly and that it is working. OBDII software shows no faults.
5. IAC is new and was supplied with the new engine.

[Edited on 5/4/16 by Snuggs]





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Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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Snuggs

posted on 4/4/16 at 02:58 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
Do you have flexible pipes between the throttle body and the inlet ports? just wondering as you say the vacuum is squashing them....

Got any pictures of the setup?


I have a 180deg 70mm silicone bend in the system.

I will get some pics tonight.

Pics

[Edited on 4/4/16 by Snuggs]





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http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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snowy2

posted on 4/4/16 at 04:05 PM Reply With Quote
Some ford ecu''s need the power steering switch wire to be earthed.-....some it must be open circuit.....





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britishtrident

posted on 4/4/16 at 04:48 PM Reply With Quote
Vacuum leak





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scudderfish

posted on 4/4/16 at 06:07 PM Reply With Quote
^^ What he said ^^

For the engine to run like that, air is getting in somewhere.

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gregs

posted on 4/4/16 at 06:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Vacuum leak


+1

Spray something volatile (WD40) around the air intake and see what happens.

Wouldn't read too much into the Silicone hose colapsing, they're not ideal for a vacuum side of an intake imho - good for boost tho!

Greg

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coozer

posted on 4/4/16 at 06:26 PM Reply With Quote
LAAN ecu is off a 2.0 blacktop so may be over fuelling.





1972 V8 Jago

1980 Z750

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britishtrident

posted on 4/4/16 at 06:48 PM Reply With Quote
Modern way of finding a vaccum leak is a smoke machine but the classic methods are use a sethoscope or spray water everywhere a leak is possible.
See this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJgrHkuqcC8
The water method is demostrated about 8 minutes in.





[I] What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]

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rusty nuts

posted on 4/4/16 at 07:11 PM Reply With Quote
The way you have mounted the idle control valve looks suspect to me, Can you take it off and seal both ports to see if it has any effect? With the engine idling that fast I would suggest looking at making a smoke machine to locate any air leaks . Can you check the throttle butterfly is closing completely ? Wouldn't be the first to not be centralised. Will it make it to Stoneleigh?
.

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Snuggs

posted on 4/4/16 at 07:50 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for all the replies guys.

I suspected the ECU but there is no smell of un-burnt fuel and the water vapour from the exhaust smells clean. I realise it is from a 2l but hoped that with the larger inlet and exhaust it would be OK.

I have tried with the IAC off and the ports blocked and the idle drops to about 1800 rpm. Not sure if it is working correctly.

I will strip the whole induction system off tomorrow and smear a couple of kilos of instant gasket about although I am reasonably sure that everything is tight and sealed now.



Mel, If I get this sorted then it will be at Stoneleigh, if not then I will have to take the Viento





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Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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big_wasa

posted on 4/4/16 at 08:02 PM Reply With Quote
With the idle control valve unplugged it should stall instantly. If it still runs there must be an air leak.
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rusty nuts

posted on 4/4/16 at 08:25 PM Reply With Quote
Silicon hose between the manifold and throttle body is probably too soft and is collapsing under vacuum . A stiffer hose probably wouldn't collapse , I realise that space may be an issue but is it possible to use a short piece , say 50 mm to see if that has any effect? Or possibly a 60mm exhaust bend?. There are a few ideas for smoke machines on the web, if you can knock one up it would help to locate any inlet air leaks. I suspect you have an air leak in or around the throttle body and possibly the ICV is fully open when it should be closed which is why with it removed and the ports plugged the speed drops to 1800 rpm?
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MikeRJ

posted on 5/4/16 at 12:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Silicon hose between the manifold and throttle body is probably too soft and is collapsing under vacuum .


I agree, using a unsupported silicone hose like this between the throttle body and the plenum is not appropriate. There's no way it will withstand the vacuum without collapsing. A stainless or alloy bend with short lengths of hose to attach it would be a far better solution.

That said it won't be causing the problems the OP is seeing unless it's leaking.

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Snuggs

posted on 5/4/16 at 01:16 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Silicon hose between the manifold and throttle body is probably too soft and is collapsing under vacuum .


I agree, using a unsupported silicone hose like this between the throttle body and the plenum is not appropriate. There's no way it will withstand the vacuum without collapsing. A stainless or alloy bend with short lengths of hose to attach it would be a far better solution.

That said it won't be causing the problems the OP is seeing unless it's leaking.



Point taken.
Alloy bend ordered today





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http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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Snuggs

posted on 5/4/16 at 07:47 PM Reply With Quote
SORTED





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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rusty nuts

posted on 5/4/16 at 08:15 PM Reply With Quote
AND?
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Snuggs

posted on 5/4/16 at 08:28 PM Reply With Quote
OK if you insist.

2 issues

1. The IAC was mounted the wrong way round, DOH!

2. The Acewell revcounter is reading double the actual rpm.


Now ticking over about 1000 rpm but not yet warmed up as I have a coolant leak.





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk

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rusty nuts

posted on 7/4/16 at 07:47 PM Reply With Quote
Well done, it's often simple things that catch you out.
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big_wasa

posted on 7/4/16 at 08:17 PM Reply With Quote
When idle vale is wrong way round it usually makes a farting noise. Rpm will be a little high until a) warm and b) the ecu has learned the engine parimiters.

Keep going

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rusty nuts

posted on 8/4/16 at 06:10 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
When idle vale is wrong way round it usually makes a farting noise. D


It's not the idle valve, it's Clive farting

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