Printable Version | Subscribe | Add to Favourites
<<  1    2    3    4    5    6  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: EU referendum debate, with comments!
Sam_68

posted on 5/5/16 at 07:38 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
...if we stay in we need to ask if we are we prepared to go that far...


Except that we don't, because among the 'concessions' recently negotiated were the confirmations:

"Measures, the purpose of which is to further deepen the economic and monetary union, will be voluntary for member states whose currency is not the euro."

and

"Mutual respect between member states participating or not in the operation of the euro area will be ensured."

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
SJ

posted on 5/5/16 at 07:43 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the edit!

I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Sam_68

posted on 5/5/16 at 07:56 AM Reply With Quote
I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future.


They may well be: and what's wrong with that? There may come a time when the UK populace and Government decide that it's actually in their best interest to participate in closer monetary union.

But they can only be changed if we agree to it: the current arrangement will be legally binding upon the EU.

I think you are being paranoid if you believe otherwise: the concessions are cast in law, not tinfoil-hat speculation.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
SJ

posted on 5/5/16 at 08:08 AM Reply With Quote
quote:

I think you are being naive if you believe those concessions won't be reviewed in future. They may well be: and what's wrong with that? There may come a time when the UK populace and Government decide that it's actually in their best interest to participate in closer monetary union. But they can only be changed if we agree to it: the current arrangement will be legally binding upon the EU. I think you are being paranoid if you believe tinfoil-hat speculation.



I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it and there is nothing 'tin foil hat' about it whatever that means. What I have suggested is a logical progression of measures taken so far.

It is up to individuals to decide what they want. Lots of people use the 'I never voted for that' answer when looking back at the original EEC referendum when comparing it with where we are now.

I just think people should be fully aware of the objectives of the EU project. One of the problems with the referendum is lack of knowledge and standing back and looking at the big picture is helpful.

I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Sam_68

posted on 5/5/16 at 08:17 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in.


No it's not.

We are voting to remain in the Union in its current, legally agreed form.

Any future changes in either direction (and there is nothing stopping us negotiating further 'concessions' if we wish to further distance ourselves from certain policies), are a separate matter.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
SJ

posted on 5/5/16 at 08:24 AM Reply With Quote
quote:

quote: Originally posted by SJ I'm not saying that if we vote in we will definitely get the euro, single government and European army etc. but going in that direction is what we are voting for if we vote to stay in. No it's not. We are voting to remain in the Union in its current, legally agreed form. Any future changes in either direction (and there is nothing stopping us negotiating further 'concessions' if we wish to further distance ourselves from certain policies), are a separate matter.



Experience suggests that you might be wrong..

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Sam_68

posted on 5/5/16 at 08:37 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
Experience suggests that you might be wrong..


What experience?

We have previously chosen not to join the Euro and, guess what, we're not a part of it.

This is the tinfoil-hat attitude: if you can point out the specific instances where the UK Government (which has a right of veto, let's not forget) was forced (not accepted by negotiation) to accept EU moves toward closer monetary union, then please do so.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
minibull

posted on 5/5/16 at 01:33 PM Reply With Quote
I'm broadly in favour of voting remain, but think everyone if polled should say they are backing the out campaign, that way the goverment can bribe us (as they did with the Scots). That way I could buy my cigarettes and alcohol from the cheapest places in the EU and have them delivered as my friends in Europe do. The big problem I have with the EU isn't unwarranted interference by unelected officials, but our elected government constants commitment to deny the benefits of membership at an individual level. If it's 'good for business' they accept any EU move. Should it be good for you and I they don't. As to immigration we've let more non EU citizens in anyway, were the only country to allow migrants in from new accession countries from day one so I can't see leaving would result in a sea change there. On the positives for leaving though, it would stop our Government from hiding behind their oft used and frequently often incorrect excuse ' we can't help it it's the EU's fault'. One thing I can't understand in the campaign at present is the will we, won't we be able to make trade deals, if we make/provide something others need they will deal with us regardless of deals as it is in their interest to. If we haven't anything they want a trade deal won't encourage trade !
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Shooter63

posted on 5/5/16 at 06:39 PM Reply With Quote
I'm for voting out and will do so, it doesn't matter how many times anybody posts the same old guff about the benefits of staying in, I didn't want to join in the first place, and I wasn't old enough to vote at the time.
It makes me laugh that some people keep posting " there facts" in a vain hope of changing some one else's mind, it won't! This is politics my friends, YOU will never know the real truth about what will happen if we leave until it happens.


Shooter

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Sam_68

posted on 5/5/16 at 07:17 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shooter63
This is politics my friends...



Actually, the important stuff is economics, which is a damned sight easier to predict and model.

It really doesn't take a genius to work out that our economy will take a serious hit if we leave the EU.

I see that the Japanese Prime Minister has now come out and warned of the consequences.

That's our own PM, and two out of the three most important non-EU nations that have warned of adverse consequences.

It's a pity that some people are just so blind reactionary that they'll never even think about allowing common sense to prevail.

I hope you'll still be feeling proud of yourself when Nissan, Honda and JLR pull out of the UK and you have to look the people who relied on them for their living in the face.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
johnemms

posted on 5/5/16 at 07:38 PM Reply With Quote
Nice video here on Brexit Linky





Own chassis & Build - First time pass!!
"7's" aren't really "cars", they are 'experiences"

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
SJ

posted on 6/5/16 at 07:32 AM Reply With Quote
The other reason for voting to remain is if you want big reforms in the benefit system and NHS. Many other EU countries have contributory based systems which work better with open borders. Ours really struggle with open borders. I'm convinced one of the reasons Cameron wants to remain is that he thinks it is a way to reform both of the above in the UK without him getting the blame.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Johneturbo

posted on 24/5/16 at 10:00 AM Reply With Quote
Out for me!

I don't like all the scaremongering that's been going on

also Obama sticking his nose in when he's only interetsted in his gains of us staying in. also microsoft, it's all about the big companys that are worried, they don't care about the little man!

Anyone else also notice how the bbc seems to be very pro stay, where's the news about the syrian refgees have they all vanished!

Wasn't there a riot at calias recently but it wasn't show on the bbc?

but sadly even if we all vote to leave the vote will be rigged

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Irony

posted on 24/5/16 at 11:37 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by Shooter63
This is politics my friends...



Actually, the important stuff is economics, which is a damned sight easier to predict and model.

It really doesn't take a genius to work out that our economy will take a serious hit if we leave the EU.

I see that the Japanese Prime Minister has now come out and warned of the consequences.

That's our own PM, and two out of the three most important non-EU nations that have warned of adverse consequences.

It's a pity that some people are just so blind reactionary that they'll never even think about allowing common sense to prevail.

I hope you'll still be feeling proud of yourself when Nissan, Honda and JLR pull out of the UK and you have to look the people who relied on them for their living in the face.



Your right this is about economics not politics. So why then does it matter what Obama or the Jap PM says. They are concerned about stability of the world economy and their own economies. I couldn't give a hoot what any politician says on the subject. I'd rather hear from businessmen and make my choice on what they say. Who is the most powerful businessman in the UK and what do he and his ilk have to say?

Have Nissan, Honda and JLR said they will pull out of the UK then if we leave the EU??????????

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Irony

posted on 24/5/16 at 11:52 AM Reply With Quote
Just spent some time googling to top 20 businessmen and women in the UK and their thoughts on BREXIT. Turns out they can't agree. What hope has the common man got of making the correct decision if these people can't agree.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
David Jenkins

posted on 24/5/16 at 12:29 PM Reply With Quote
I'm still unsure... but the biased reporting is starting to wind me up. I found this on YouTube - it's extremely one-sided (pro-exit) but aspects of what they report are quite shocking...



Note: it's an hour long, and some bits in the middle are exceptionally stupid and amateurish (the play-acting) but other parts are ... interesting.
Don't take it as "The Truth", nor should you think that this is my opinion, but it's the most detailed presentation I've seen so far.






View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
SJ

posted on 24/5/16 at 12:52 PM Reply With Quote
I don't agree it is about economics. The first decision should a political one i.e do we want to be part of a larger country called the EU or not. Politically there are positives and negatives to staying or leaving, but either way the economics will sort themselves out in the medium to long term as long as we are a productive nation.
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
SteveWallace

posted on 24/5/16 at 09:23 PM Reply With Quote
I'm no fan of the scaremongering and extreme spin that both sides are using at the moment, but I can see that many in the out campaign seem to be basing their decision on a point of principle about controlling our own destiny.

What I would really like someone to explain to me however is why so many business leaders and institutions want us to stay in if its really as bad for us as the out campaign would have us believe. What's in it for them? I have a hard time believing that they can all be David Icke style alien lizards bent on world domination.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
james-w

posted on 24/5/16 at 10:19 PM Reply With Quote
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'

There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_centre

The other key point to this referendum to me personally is immigration; we are having to turn away and even deport highly skilled non EU citizens due to them not earning 35k+ per year to meet immigration targets whereas the flow of unskilled labour is unchecked as our hands are tied.

This only serves to drive down wages and help big business keep their costs down, hence the of large multinationals putting forward their cases to remain, even threatening to pull out of the UK if we choose to leave.

Again this argument is flawed when you look at the investment of the likes of Honda and Nissan where between them have invested over 300 million pounds in the last year even though they new a referendum on the EU and a possible exit was on the cards.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Sam_68

posted on 24/5/16 at 11:59 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Your right this is about economics not politics. So why then does it matter what Obama or the Jap PM says. They are concerned about stability of the world economy and their own economies... Who is the most powerful businessman in the UK and what do he and his ilk have to say?



Unless you failed to notice, we've just pulled through a global recession.

We operate in a global economy, of which Europe is one of the joint largest players, alongside China and the US. The UK on its own is an also-ran.

Pretty much every big business player in the UK is saying the same thing: if we withdraw from Europe, it will hurt us. Badly.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
cliftyhanger

posted on 25/5/16 at 06:58 AM Reply With Quote
And I have just heard on the radio that the leave campaign is (surprise surprise) going to concentrate on immigration as its main point as other arguments don't seem to be making progress.
The politics of fear, hatred and blame really are rather low.
Must say the stay campaign is also based on fear, but is swerving hatred and blame.

I still want EU reform and to stay. But I am convinced it is either/or and we won't get both.
Best result will be if we vote to leave, and the EU does a mega deal/shakeup and changes enough that we have to re-vote. Pigs might fly.

However, with the growing surge in far right politics across the EU, the next few years could get exciting. But I doubt in a good way. I like politics to be almost un-noticed, just smoothly moving along. But just like a nasty boil, pressure is growing and at some point it will need lancing. Messy for a while, but will quicly heal. However, I am non too keen on us being the ones left with the mess to clear up.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
SteveWallace

posted on 25/5/16 at 07:39 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'

There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.




That's my point. If it is really a big red herring, why are so many of those business apparently so keen on us staying in and why are so many financial institutions saying that we will take a hit?

I don't understand why they are all so keen on telling us that everything will go t*$s up if we leave, yet I also know that they are deliberately using worst case scenario's in their analysis to make their point. What's in it for them that the rest of us shouldn't like, because if its profits and jobs, we should all be worried as well.

I'm a relatively well informed punter, I'm working on a collaborative project that's funded by the EU, and I'm currently wavering one way and then the other. With all the spin and counter spin, I have no idea how your average Joe couch potato is supposed to make an informed decision.

What I don't like about the EU:

I) stupid regulations that don't work for us that we have to live with
ii) lack of control of our borders
iii) drive towards federalism
iv) Accession of countries that really shouldn't be joining

What I like:

I) Good regulation (much of the environmental legislation, workers rights etc)
ii) Being inside of a larger trading block (which is what the EEC started out as being)
iii) EU investment into deprived areas of our country that successive UK governments would have ignored even if they had been saving the EU membership fees
iv) Freedom of movement in the job market

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 25/5/16 at 07:57 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by richardm6994
The government have done this referendum because if we vote to stay, then they have the justification why we've not left the EU whenever the topic arises in the future. If we vote to leave, then the EU will probably just block the exit and the government can sit back and put on a sorry face and say 'we tried to leave but it's not our fault we're having to stay'

At the end of the day, we'll not be leaving the EU because either the referendum will finish with a 'stay' result or alternatively the EU and its members will simply block us from leaving by not approving (or dragging out beyond reason) the severance agreement.


Quite a bit of sense in the above, well, to me anyway.

However, the Parasitic (Sc)ameron(um) 'have done' this referendum simply because he/they were worried about the sheeple not voting them in again. In order to placate the back benchers (and as it turns out some front-benchers too) and those voters wanting to take back control of the country, they had to offer a referendum. Farage ate *very* heavily into the votes of the two main parties, Scameron was scared of not being re-elected, so he put this on the table. He's hoping the Sheeple can be scared, so that his trough can be forever filled and they can all stay on the gravy train.

I'm not from a 'political' persuasion, I'm a disenfranchised aging cynic. The whole system just reeks of corruption, UK and EU alike. Our Elite make noises to placate us, while they fill their boots with disregard. Hell, Bliar was looked at a 'Socialist' by the sheeple, while he waged war, invaded sovereign countries, created the PFI legacy, opened our borders and satisfied his personal greed. Scameron is no better, these are the Elite.

Be careful, the Thought Police are out there.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
cliftyhanger

posted on 25/5/16 at 08:19 AM Reply With Quote
quote:


I'm not from a 'political' persuasion, I'm a disenfranchised aging cynic. The whole system just reeks of corruption, UK and EU alike. Our Elite make noises to placate us, while they fill their boots with disregard. Hell, Bliar was looked at a 'Socialist' by the sheeple, while he waged war, invaded sovereign countries, created the PFI legacy, opened our borders and satisfied his personal greed. Scameron is no better, these are the Elite.


Hmm, looks like you have a slightly higher opinion of politicians than me.
Just that I rate cameron above Blair, Blair was/is greedy beyond comprehension, and his Mrs didn't even have the decency to wait until he was out of office to cash in. At least Cameron is a bit more honest that he is a rich boy.

Saying that, bit like saying a gonorrhoea is better than syphilis.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
james-w

posted on 25/5/16 at 10:26 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveWallace
quote:
Originally posted by james-w
The economic argument for remaining is a red herring. we are the largest financial centre globally and roughly 80% of our exports are financial services not physical goods as some imagine when discussing 'exports'

There are no other EU countries even close to the top ten, the EU and the world need the UK's services.




That's my point. If it is really a big red herring, why are so many of those business apparently so keen on us staying in and why are so many financial institutions saying that we will take a hit?

I don't understand why they are all so keen on telling us that everything will go t*$s up if we leave, yet I also know that they are deliberately using worst case scenario's in their analysis to make their point. What's in it for them that the rest of us shouldn't like, because if its profits and jobs, we should all be worried as well.

I'm a relatively well informed punter, I'm working on a collaborative project that's funded by the EU, and I'm currently wavering one way and then the other. With all the spin and counter spin, I have no idea how your average Joe couch potato is supposed to make an informed decision.

What I don't like about the EU:

I) stupid regulations that don't work for us that we have to live with
ii) lack of control of our borders
iii) drive towards federalism
iv) Accession of countries that really shouldn't be joining

What I like:

I) Good regulation (much of the environmental legislation, workers rights etc)
ii) Being inside of a larger trading block (which is what the EEC started out as being)
iii) EU investment into deprived areas of our country that successive UK governments would have ignored even if they had been saving the EU membership fees
iv) Freedom of movement in the job market


I do believe there will be a minor economic impact in the short term as we break free, it would be unrealistic to think otherwise but not to the scale all of the 'Independent' (EU funded) organisations claim.

Longer term however I think the UK economy will be able to grow beyond where it is currently once it is free of the EU restrictions on trade where all 28 member states have to agree. There are issues currently with the Canada-EU trade deal as Canada is unwilling to give visa free travel to Romanians which are now threatening a veto.

It is a price I am will to pay when looking at the bigger picture and my children's future prosperity.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
<<  1    2    3    4    5    6  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top






Website design and SEO by Studio Montage

All content © 2001-16 LocostBuilders. Reproduction prohibited
Opinions expressed in public posts are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
the views of other users or any member of the LocostBuilders team.
Running XMB 1.8 Partagium [© 2002 XMB Group] on Apache under CentOS Linux
Founded, built and operated by ChrisW.