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Author: Subject: lightest standard hubs, narrow rack and roll tube to use for a trike?
Mr Whippy

posted on 17/5/18 at 06:44 AM Reply With Quote
lightest standard hubs, narrow rack and roll tube to use for a trike?

Hi

For a very light 3 wheeled bike based trike like below, could I get some recommendations on where or what to obtain some suitable parts -

1) Hubs from a standard car that would be suitable for double wishbone suspension? Trying to keep things simple and as little machining as possible. Perhaps the sierra/cortina ones would be light enough but are their more modern alternatives these days? Did think classic VW beetle too with a disk conversion??

2) That narrow rack... what are the cheap options? Russbost you been using anything suitable? I don't think it's even an issue with not using a centre drive one as if it's just a RHD then at least the column is then angled and better in a crash, just not sure which cars use such narrow ones that can be adapted?

3) That roll over hoop, hmm tricky, can you buy standard hoops like that or do they have to be custom made? There's one for the scuttle too, car anyone recommend a company that can bend tube to a CAD drawing?

Aim is to make one of these for absolute peanuts based on parts from the local scappy and locost secondhand (crappy) 500cc bike with an MOT... so I can use it to go to work. I will be making a GRP shell for it with a windscreen using the time old GRP over spray foam mould.

Brief would be -

1) uses 100% standard parts
2) uses narrow cheap car tyres
3) mostly for city driving
4) uses the bikes V5 and no requirement for anything other than an MOT
5) super cheap to run with a 200 mile range
6) enclosed body, with a flip up windscreen for access (bottom hinged, gas strut, flat glass panel.
7) water cooled bike for simple heating/demist









[Edited on 17/5/18 by Mr Whippy]

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russbost

posted on 17/5/18 at 07:49 AM Reply With Quote
The narrow rack - are you sure you want a narrow rack as the one pictured looks like anything 7 style would do the job? The Cinquecento/Seicento rack is the narrow one I use, but to get that track width (similar to mine) you'd need extensions on the end of the rack, we have ours machined & they're not cheap, I guess you could fairly easily weld something up to do the job, but difficult to make it look pretty

Lightweight hubs? possibly the same as above, tho' I've never looked at them, but from a small, light car you'd not expect a hulking heavy hub, alternatively how about quad bike parts from one of the larger, sturdier quads, not sure about availability, there may be specialist breakers?

Roll over hoop - no problem, & you don't need a CAD drawing, just send dimensions you want to piggin.pipes@btinternet.com

07894136377 & they will bend to suit, they might struggle if you're after a specific curved profile, but if you simply want something of the correct width height & diameter then they will do one offs at competitive money

I'm nowhere near as familiar with MSVA as I am with IVA, but pretty sure you can't (legally) run on the bike V5, surely it would need to go through MSVA

Just one other point, the one shown appears to have equal length front wishbones, that's unlikely to lead to great handling characteristics

Edited to add, I would personally want some side protection with lightweight tubes running diagonally up to the roll hoop



[Edited on 17/5/18 by russbost]





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Mr Whippy

posted on 17/5/18 at 08:58 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks Russ, great info there, especially the tube bending

You might be right about the steering rack, it may be just the same size as a locost, I was trying to get plans and after a while have found the guy who designed it so trying to obtain them (he's in the states)

In regards to the MSVA, I believe (will confirm with the local testing station which is just down the road from my work) but as long as you do not alter the bike to the extent that is cannot be reverted back to it's previous bike form i.e. leave the frame and head intact... then you can continue to use the bikes V5.

Yes I did spot the equal length wishbones which looked a bit naff but when I looked into it, basically the answer I got was that since the front would have so much more grip anyway, compared to the the back it really didn't matter... also this front suspension design you'll notice is a bit odd as allows zero roll since both sides are completely linked together like some mad roll bar setup (from what I read is the original intention). I'm not 100% certain I like this much tbh but for this application may be just fine.

oh and totally agree with the extra roof rails, actually looking at quite beefy ones tbh, especially with the weight of the bike bearing down on the top of the hoop like that in a crash...

[Edited on 17/5/18 by Mr Whippy]

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russbost

posted on 17/5/18 at 09:13 AM Reply With Quote
The setup with the single shock is standard on many race cars, I have to admit that I have never fully understood it as some of the reactions seem counter intuitive. I feel that for a race setup, ie super stiff & designed to run on smooth surfaces etc it may be fine, but I think for road use it would be rubbish, waaaay too stiff. We don't run an anti roll bar for that exact reason & our car behaves very well on the road, in fact I have only ever had compliments in regard to the ride of the car

There was a trike built years ago styled like a formula Ford, which used a similar setup & I recall a picture of the car, taken at Snetterton I think, standing on 2 wheels with the inside wheel a couple of feet in the air!!!
Needless to say that wouldn't inspire confidence in me! I think the KISS principle is best in this sort of instance!

That's a really interesting point re the V5, please do let us know the outcome of that one, could be a handy loophole! The only negatives are that you'd probably be adding more weight than absolutely necessary & it does make for a long wheelbase, that would help handling, but not maneuverability & parking!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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dan8400

posted on 17/5/18 at 05:03 PM Reply With Quote
I'm building something similar, I assumed I would need an MSVA test.

I haven't changed the frame of the Zx9r and it could be put back to a bike (if I hadn't sold the bits off).

Interested to see what the rules say, but I would probably have it tested anyway for my own price of mind.

Thanks
Dan





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Mr Whippy

posted on 18/5/18 at 06:31 AM Reply With Quote
Still trying to find that written down... went to the local testing station but that no longer has someone there who does MSVA's and the nearest is Edinburgh, by appointment so will write them a letter. However from the DLVA site -

DVLA uses a points system to decide what registration number to give a radically altered vehicle.

Keep the original registration number

Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

Part Points

Chassis, monocoque bodyshell (body and chassis as one unit) or frame - original or new and unmodified (direct from manufacturer) 5

Suspension (front and back) - original 2

Axles (both) - original 2

Transmission - original 2

Steering assembly - original 2

Engine - original 1

So right away we can see it definitely gets 8 points so keeps the bikes reg....so I'm a bit rusty here...does it then not need an MSVA? if it was a kit car or even a Landy I'd assume it was just a normal MOT as further down it continues -

Get a ‘Q’ registration number

You won’t be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:

it has fewer than 8 points - nope

it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame - nope

there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’) - nope

Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

Tbh I read that as I don't need to get a relevant type approval test... i.e. an MSVA...?

DVLA page


I did read on a trike manufacture site that for bolt on conversion to convert bikes to trikes you still need the wheel plan changed on the V5 and that required a simple confirmation from an DVLA examiner but that's not very hard



[Edited on 18/5/18 by Mr Whippy]

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02GF74

posted on 18/5/18 at 06:58 AM Reply With Quote
What you quoted is about keeping original registration.

From gov website.
quote:
You must also use the MSVA scheme if your vehicle has been radically altered or built using a mixture of parts from previously registered vehicles. For example:

amateur built vehicles
rebuilt vehicles
vehicles converted to a different wheelplan


I would say what you plan to do is at least two of the above.

[Edited on 18/5/18 by 02GF74]





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Mr Whippy

posted on 18/5/18 at 07:28 AM Reply With Quote
hmm yeah you do have a point...sadly, the bottom one definitely, good spot

So it would be an MSVA but keep the bikes reg.

Cheers

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russbost

posted on 18/5/18 at 04:56 PM Reply With Quote
Hmmm.... Bit of a minefield & as usual with anything the government get involved with, clear as mud, I would question whether this section may apply:-

Kit-converted vehicles
Your vehicle must meet the road vehicles regulations if you use it on the road.

A kit-converted vehicle has had:

a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit.

How to register
You must follow all the instructions for registering a new vehicle.

You’ll need to include the following with your application:

form V627/1 - ‘Built up vehicle inspection report’
the vehicle registration certificate for the original vehicle
evidence of type approval, if necessary – see ‘Vehicle type approval’ below
official receipts for any parts used
build plans
photographs of the vehicle
Contact DVLA if you’re not sure about what you need to provide.

Send your application to:

K and R
DVLA
SA99 1ZZ
Keep a vehicle’s original registration number
You can apply to keep a kit converted vehicle’s original registration number if you can prove you’ve used 2 original major parts along with the original unmodified:

chassis (car or light van)
monocoque bodyshell (car or light van)
frame (motorbike)

It doesn't mention ANY form of test, not IVA, MSVA, MoT or any form of inspection, which seems surprising! The reason I think that the above may be applicable is

"a kit of new parts added to an existing vehicle, or
old parts added to a new kit
The general appearance of the vehicle will change because of the kit" I don't think you could say that the new trike looked like the old bike, so appearance would defo change & it is, effectively, a kit of parts added to an old vehicle, tho' in this case the "kit of parts" would actually not be new but secondhand & not really a "kit" as such - sounds like it falls between two different areas, I think you definitely need something IN WRITING! from DVLA or VOSA to avoid later potential arguments/problems, particularly if you ever came to sell it

I suspect that they would treat it as a radically altered vehicle & therefore would want MSVA, although it would appear that you might still be able to keep the original reg. which is totally contrary to anything I've seen them do b4!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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ettore bugatti

posted on 19/5/18 at 12:29 AM Reply With Quote
Classic Mini would have the right front end.

Oh, and I like this one:

http://www.2rike.com/

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