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Author: Subject: Fitting a Cat to a Pinto to meet Emissions standards
robertst

posted on 14/6/18 at 03:08 PM Reply With Quote
Fitting a Cat to a Pinto to meet Emissions standards

Hi all,

Its been a while since i have posted here, I'm currently battling my way through trying to register my locost here in Spain. It passed its IVA last year with flying colours, with a 2.0L Pinto, R1 carbs and megajolt, and I got a Q plate. Trouble is, they don't recognise cars by their engine age here in Spain so they need to check emissions as if it were a new car (or at least at the date of its registration, which is 2017)

Im trying to tell them that wanting to test a pinto at the current standards is like asking an old Commodore to run Windows 10, but I'm not winning that battle as far as I can tell. So i was wondering, if i tune the carbs as best i can with my wideband, run the engine as lean as possible, fit a 400 cell cat and use a special "MOT" map, maybe even have it run on 3 cylinders just for the test?

I dont mind if I shorten the cat's life considerably doing this... its just to get me through this ridiculous test.

IIRC the current standards are:

CO: 0.2%
HC: 200ppm
Lambda 0.97-1.03

Is there any chance i can get the old boat anchor through the emissions test? Or would i be wasting my time (and money)?

Thanks!!

Tom

[Edited on 14/6/18 by robertst]

[Edited on 14/6/18 by robertst]





Tom

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russbost

posted on 14/6/18 at 04:21 PM Reply With Quote
There was a bit of kit available some years ago that would do what you want, I don't believe still available, but must be possible to get the requisite circuit made up.

Basically you set the carbs to run slightly rich at whatever throttle openings are required, eg at idle & at 3000 rpm, you then have an vacuum take off on all carbs/inlets, these are all connected to a solenoid controlled valve which can leak air when required, the solenoid is controlled by a lambda sensor which works in the usual way, so when it senses rich you need a circuit to open the solenoid & bleed air, as soon as the lambda sensor senses weak it closes the valve & with the air bleed cut off it will tend rich again.

It would need some playing with but can't see why it wouldn't work

I put a Toyota 4AGE in with it's standard fuel injection on (ok admittedly injection rather than carbs, but a bog standard 22 year old engine) & it would have passed the CAT test (even tho' it had no CAT fitted!) with the exception of the lambda reading!

Lambda is by far the hardest thing to get stable, they give you such a small "window" - with the ZZR1400 engine we don't use a lambda sensor, but simply set the map to give the right fuelling at idle & 3000, never failed to get one thro yet

I suspect you will only want to be fractionally rich & have only a very small air leak with the solenoid, but the theory works ............

Best of luck





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big_wasa

posted on 14/6/18 at 04:38 PM Reply With Quote
I donít think it can be practically done at home on carbs. Even running it hot with air injection.

You need a lean burn 16v engine with fuel injection and a cat. All in my opinion and happy to be wrong.

[Edited on 14/6/18 by big_wasa]

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robertst

posted on 14/6/18 at 04:52 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
There was a bit of kit available some years ago that would do what you want, I don't believe still available, but must be possible to get the requisite circuit made up.

Basically you set the carbs to run slightly rich at whatever throttle openings are required, eg at idle & at 3000 rpm, you then have an vacuum take off on all carbs/inlets, these are all connected to a solenoid controlled valve which can leak air when required, the solenoid is controlled by a lambda sensor which works in the usual way, so when it senses rich you need a circuit to open the solenoid & bleed air, as soon as the lambda sensor senses weak it closes the valve & with the air bleed cut off it will tend rich again.

It would need some playing with but can't see why it wouldn't work

I put a Toyota 4AGE in with it's standard fuel injection on (ok admittedly injection rather than carbs, but a bog standard 22 year old engine) & it would have passed the CAT test (even tho' it had no CAT fitted!) with the exception of the lambda reading!

Lambda is by far the hardest thing to get stable, they give you such a small "window" - with the ZZR1400 engine we don't use a lambda sensor, but simply set the map to give the right fuelling at idle & 3000, never failed to get one thro yet

I suspect you will only want to be fractionally rich & have only a very small air leak with the solenoid, but the theory works ............

Best of luck


That is a neat solution! I'll look into it! I can use the vacuum takeoffs i have at the inlet manifold. i guess i need to find some sort of controller that links the sensor to the solenoid, then? thanks a lot!!


quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I donít think it can be practically done at home on carbs. Even running it hot with air injection. You need a lean burn 16v engine with fuel injection and a cat. All in my opinion and happy to be wrong.



My thoughts too initially, but then again, it doesnīt need to be a practical or permanent modification. Just a sort of botch to get it through testing! .

Replacing the engine is the last thing i want to do. Too much work and money involved in that, but if there's no other way...

[Edited on 14/6/18 by robertst]





Tom

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russbost

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:00 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I donít think it can be practically done at home on carbs. Even running it hot with air injection.

You need a lean burn 16v engine with fuel injection and a cat. All in my opinion and happy to be wrong.

[Edited on 14/6/18 by big_wasa]


It depends how well setup it is in the first place, if it's running rich as hell at idle & weak by loads at 3000 then you have no chance, but it's not difficult to get a carb'ed engine to run at say, 1% CO & 200ppm HC's, a decent CAT will easily deal with figures like that, as I say, it's lambda that causes the problem





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big_wasa

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:03 PM Reply With Quote
What Russ has menchioned is I believe air injection. Itís nothing new but not easy to control. The cat wonít last long with carbs and itís a dance you will have to do every year
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russbost

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:22 PM Reply With Quote
"itís a dance you will have to do every year" - certainly worth bearing in mind if that's the case - how does "MoT" work in Spain, what limits would they test to? Can you find a "friendly" Spanish garage?





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robertst

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:47 PM Reply With Quote
Its running pretty well for now, When it was tested it was below 2% CO and HCs were at around 900 i think, so it passed with room to spare!


quote:
itís a dance you will have to do every year


quote:

"itís a dance you will have to do every year" - certainly worth bearing in mind if that's the case - how does "MoT" work in Spain, what limits would they test to? Can you find a "friendly" Spanish garage?




Good point...

First MOT in Spain is 5 years after first registration, then every two years until the car is 10 years old, then annually from there on...

My plan of course is to do as best i can at home and find a friendly garage that lets me tinker with their exhaust analyzer.

I don't know where I or the car will be in 10 years time but at least it gives me some time to plan and budget a future engine swap, as I dont really have the time or the money to change the engine, mounts, wiring, buy a Megasquirt, etc right now...





Tom

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russbost

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:51 PM Reply With Quote
As regards an engine swap, would an injected Mx5 lump not be the easiest option? Can you get the standard injection system under a 7 bonnet? If so that would make a relatively simple swap rather than needing to go the bespoke injection & ECU route





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robertst

posted on 14/6/18 at 05:58 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
As regards an engine swap, would an injected Mx5 lump not be the easiest option? Can you get the standard injection system under a 7 bonnet? If so that would make a relatively simple swap rather than needing to go the bespoke injection & ECU route


Actually, the Mx-5 is a good alternative! nice rorty little engine, but i'd still have to get a new bellhousing to fit it to the type 9 or get a mazda gearbox and a new custom made propshaft to connect it to the diff, and a megasquirt to get it to pass emissions anyway, not to mention the inlet and exhausts are the other way round than on the pinto, so i'd have to change lots of other bits in the engine bay...

[Edited on 14/6/18 by robertst]





Tom

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russbost

posted on 14/6/18 at 06:14 PM Reply With Quote
LoL as you can see I'm not an expert on 7's!





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Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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on_eighty_runner

posted on 14/6/18 at 07:50 PM Reply With Quote
The test might make things a more complex depending on the combination of tests that is done.

In Ireland the emissions is checked at idle for HC and CO.
And again at 2-3,000 rpm
HC, CO and lambda.

Would suggest is impossible to get it pass all 5 tests with carbs.

An Efi system complete for a modern car after 1994 and a cat might get it through testing but might run like a pig.
As in a fiat 1.2 single point injection throttle body, itís ecu, itís cat and exhaust o2 sensor.

The cat will burn fuel the engine doesnít burn properly and the ecu will get it to pass the lambda test.

If your engine is burning oil try a different approach as you will fail HC.

Any exemptions for hybrids, 2 strokes, registered electric etc available?

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watsonpj

posted on 14/6/18 at 09:53 PM Reply With Quote
I used what russ was suggesting to get through my emissions. It had a control module and two valves which were connected to the inlets just below the carbs (fireblade )






It was very easy to setup as you just set it up normally, richen it up till a light came on then switched the unit on. Went through emission easy, Amalyos on here also got through sva using it also.

I bought it from Fisher sports cars then sold it on here. Haven't seen it advertised since.

Pete

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mcerd1

posted on 15/6/18 at 08:49 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by robertst
Actually, the Mx-5 is a good alternative! nice rorty little engine, but i'd still have to get a new bellhousing to fit it to the type 9 or get a mazda gearbox and a new custom made propshaft to connect it to the diff, and a megasquirt to get it to pass emissions anyway, not to mention the inlet and exhausts are the other way round than on the pinto, so i'd have to change lots of other bits in the engine bay...

I do love the my pinto - but asking it to pass modern emissions on carb's sounds like too much work, so I'd say if your going to need to do all that work then you might aswell do it to a more modern engine...

A duratec HE (1.8 / 2.0 / 2.3) has the exhaust on the same side as the pinto
type 9 bellhousings are easy to get too not to mention the extra tuning potential


and its a similar story with the ford sigma (aka Zetec SE) engine (1.25/1.4/1.6/1.7) - these are cheap and easy to find, very light next to a pinto and some folk have even got these running on the stock Ford EFI too





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russbost

posted on 15/6/18 at 09:01 AM Reply With Quote
Guys, let's get a few things straight, if we're talking about a knackered Pinto with 80,000 miles that's breathing oil & has carbs on it that aren't setup properly then, no, absolutely no chance of realistically being able to get it to pass, but I used to work on Pintos all the time back in the day, our speciality was Crypton Tuning (remember those?), we used to get the ones to straighten out after everyone else had had a go & screwed them up!

Providing the engine wasn't just plain knackered, then, with valve clearances set correctly, new filters, breathers clear & working as they should, the engine was easily capable of 1% CO & less than 200ppm HC's, & running like that fuel/air would have been close to 14.7:1 - I'm not speculating, those are hard facts, now I don't know just how the bike carbs are likely to affect that (tho' wouldn't be hard to bolt a 28/36 Weber or similar back on), but as long as they are giving a linear mixture, ie not way weak or rich at either end of the scale, & remember, 3000 rpm is a very small throttle opening with no load, it's only just off idle, then it should not be hard to get it passed if a similar kit to that which has been described can be either purchased or assembled

As a matter of interest does anyone that actually had one of the professionally supplied ones remember the name - you never know what may be available on Ebay!





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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robertst

posted on 15/6/18 at 10:14 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by watsonpj
I used what russ was suggesting to get through my emissions. It had a control module and two valves which were connected to the inlets just below the carbs (fireblade )






It was very easy to setup as you just set it up normally, richen it up till a light came on then switched the unit on. Went through emission easy, Amalyos on here also got through sva using it also.

I bought it from Fisher sports cars then sold it on here. Haven't seen it advertised since.

Pete


Brilliant! thats what i'm looking for! was going crazy searching for it on google. You wouldn't happen to know what its called by any chance? to search it on ebay, maybe someday one pops up. cheers!


quote:
Originally posted by on_eighty_runner
The test might make things a more complex depending on the combination of tests that is done.

In Ireland the emissions is checked at idle for HC and CO.
And again at 2-3,000 rpm
HC, CO and lambda.

Would suggest is impossible to get it pass all 5 tests with carbs.

An Efi system complete for a modern car after 1994 and a cat might get it through testing but might run like a pig.
As in a fiat 1.2 single point injection throttle body, itís ecu, itís cat and exhaust o2 sensor.

The cat will burn fuel the engine doesnít burn properly and the ecu will get it to pass the lambda test.

If your engine is burning oil try a different approach as you will fail HC.

Any exemptions for hybrids, 2 strokes, registered electric etc available?


I just passed a Spanish MOT on my tin top this morning, they only check CO idle, CO @2500 rpm and lambda looks like the old pinto might just have a chance!


quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
I do love the my pinto - but asking it to pass modern emissions on carb's sounds like too much work, so I'd say if your going to need to do all that work then you might aswell do it to a more modern engine...

A duratec HE (1.8 / 2.0 / 2.3) has the exhaust on the same side as the pinto
type 9 bellhousings are easy to get too not to mention the extra tuning potential


and its a similar story with the ford sigma (aka Zetec SE) engine (1.25/1.4/1.6/1.7) - these are cheap and easy to find, very light next to a pinto and some folk have even got these running on the stock Ford EFI too


Yeah, i understand your point of view. Duratec is a good option! I just checked and engines alone are quite cheap actually, so seeing that i'd have 5 years till my next MOT here if I manage to register it as it is, i can bodge my way through this registration and then calmly plan a swap in the future.

Another cheap and cheerful solution would be to fit a pinto injection head and all the EFI bits. Ford did make catalyzed injection pintos at the time, right? plus my pinto has the 205 block, which if im not mistaken was also used on the injection models..


Thanks to all for your help!!!

[Edited on 15/6/18 by robertst]

[Edited on 15/6/18 by robertst]





Tom

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russbost

posted on 15/6/18 at 11:02 AM Reply With Quote
Pretty sure there were no changes on the bottom end between carb & injection models. There may have been minor changes to the head or valves, but pretty sure cam was the same, if you're running a wild cam then it will make the exercise harder, but not impossible.

The big changes in later engines (like Zetec, Sigma & Duratec) with injection & combustion chamber shape etc were all about reducing NOxes not CO & HC's





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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mcerd1

posted on 15/6/18 at 11:05 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by robertst
Another cheap and cheerful solution would be to fit a pinto injection head and all the EFI bits. Ford did make catalyzed injection pintos at the time, right? plus my pinto has the 205 block, which if im not mistaken was also used on the injection models..

Yes you can get stock EFI on a pinto - thats how mine started life (I've given away most of the EFI bits over the years)
but I don't think we ever got these with a CAT in the UK (the sierra / granada's were mostly using DOHC's by that time)

its a multi point setup with a single throttle body and a stripped out dizzy with a hal effect sensor and no vac. advance

the 205 block is a little stronger, but that has no effect on the EFI setup anyway (20, 205, 200 and RS500 they are all interchangeable, just stronger and heavier)
205 blocks might be the original 'cossie' one but they aren't that special are also used on the low compression engines in the likes of the transit/P100
you really only need a 205 block if your fitting very oversized pistons or fitting a turbo / supercharger

the EFI head has a little better port design (the likely source of the EFI engines extra 10bhp) and more of these have hardened valve seats too
teh cam has a slightly different profile too I believe, but nothing too extreme so don't know how much difference you'd notice.
but if your fitting the stock EFI the important bit is the 'egg shape' inlet ports to clear the injectors


and remember this is all running on a ~25+ year old ECU with no OBD diagnostic port - so trouble shooting issues can be a total PITA
So unless you've got a running complete EFI setup with a CAT ready to swap on I wouldn't even try - fitting a complete custom megasquirt setup on bike ITB's would probably be 100x easier

[Edited on 15/6/2018 by mcerd1]





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theprisioner

posted on 15/6/18 at 04:40 PM Reply With Quote
Sounds like an application for a PIC controller. All you need is a PC programmer and a bit of assembler code. Maplin used to supply all the bits.





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robertst

posted on 20/8/18 at 05:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by watsonpj
I used what russ was suggesting to get through my emissions. It had a control module and two valves which were connected to the inlets just below the carbs (fireblade )

It was very easy to setup as you just set it up normally, richen it up till a light came on then switched the unit on. Went through emission easy, Amalyos on here also got through sva using it also.

I bought it from Fisher sports cars then sold it on here. Haven't seen it advertised since.

Pete


Hi all,

Just chiming in to update you on this. After searching on the internet for an air injection kit like the one Fisher Sportscars used to supply and getting absolutely no results... I thought, how hard can it be to make one? so I decided to make my own air injector controller using an arduino, some simple coding, a couple of transistors, vacuum lines, my AFR gauge and two EGR solenoids from an audi to feed the air to the manifold.



Given that i already had an AFR gauge that outputs a linear voltage for datalogging, i decided to tap into that and drive the arduino off it.



Then i compiled a simple code instructing the arduino to power the solenoids and therefore inject air into the manifold when a voltage threshold (i,e. below 14.7 AFR) is exceeded.



So far its working quite well!



it hovers between 0.90 and 1.10 lambda at idle and between 0.99 at 1.01 at 2500rpm! so, like russbost and big_wasa mentioned, i'll have to tinker a little bit more to make it more stable... maybe restricting the air intakes to the solenoids a little bit so it doesnt inject too much air and therefore reducing the fluctuations? My goal is to get it within 0.98 to 1.03 lambda, which is the limit here for emissions.



now i just need to find a friendly garage with a gas tester to confirm CO and Lambda readings! wish me luck!

Thanks a million to all for the help!!

Tom

[Edited on 20/8/18 by robertst]

[Edited on 20/8/18 by robertst]





Tom

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big_wasa

posted on 20/8/18 at 06:02 PM Reply With Quote
10/10 for effort you must love your pinto.
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rusty nuts

posted on 20/8/18 at 06:46 PM Reply With Quote
If the HC is high you might find replacing the valve stem oil seals will reduce them ? Easy to do without taking the head off. High HC is caused by unburnt fuel or oil. The more efficient an engine runs the lower the HCs , one of your earlier posts mentioned running on 3 cylinders which will may things worse.
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Slimy38

posted on 20/8/18 at 06:49 PM Reply With Quote
That is some mightily impressive work there, well done!! Out of interest, how often do the solenoids switch on and off? Is it a click every so often or are they merrily buzzing along all the time? I'm guessing the Arduino can run significantly faster than the solenoids could keep up?
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robertst

posted on 20/8/18 at 10:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
If the HC is high you might find replacing the valve stem oil seals will reduce them ? Easy to do without taking the head off. High HC is caused by unburnt fuel or oil. The more efficient an engine runs the lower the HCs , one of your earlier posts mentioned running on 3 cylinders which will may things worse.


thanks for the advice! I'll keep an eye on the HCs but the engine seems to be tip top right now. I had to change the head gasket a month ago after finding oil in the coolant. so i changed the oil stem seals while i was at it and filled the engine back up with thicker oil for good measure.

quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
That is some mightily impressive work there, well done!! Out of interest, how often do the solenoids switch on and off? Is it a click every so often or are they merrily buzzing along all the time? I'm guessing the Arduino can run significantly faster than the solenoids could keep up?


cheers! yeah, at first they were buzzing all the time so i changed the limits on the Arduino and now they only buzz sometimes. I don't know if they'll last that long but they're very cheap to replace if they eventually fail. In theory the Arduino runs way faster than the solenoids can keep up, but if that were the case, the fluctuations in both the voltage readout from the Arduino as well as the AFR reading would be way larger and more erratic, and I dont seem to be noticing it on the logs.





Tom

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russbost

posted on 22/8/18 at 07:49 AM Reply With Quote
"My goal is to get it within 0.98 to 1.03 lambda, which is the limit here for emissions" well you're already there at 2500rpm, 0.99 to 1.01 is better than a lot of older production vehicles, do you need to have lambda checked at idle? In the UK it's only CO that's checked at idle.

Assuming the lambda readout to be accurate then I would expect CO & HC's to be easily controlled with a CAT - hope all goes well with the test.

Presumably the transistors you mention are used to take the output from the Arduino & switch the solenoids?





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