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Author: Subject: OT Sanity check - Removing a wall
tegwin

posted on 2/10/20 at 10:59 AM Reply With Quote
OT Sanity check - Removing a wall

I am pretty sure what I want to do is totally fine but thought i'd ask the collective for a verification.

1970's house. Has a weird coal-bunker under the stairs accessible from outside and a small larder that protrudes into the kitchen.

Be interested to hear what people think on the structure?

The intention is to
1.Remove the larder to square off the kitchen. But retain the back wall of the larder.
2. Brick up the external access to the coal bunker
3. Remove the brick partition wall under the stairs to enable access to the under-stairs area. I plan to put the washing machine, CU and possibly boiler in there. A timber structure will be added to carry a door and make it look tidy.

I am assuming because the walls are effectively "external" as the coal cellar is not insulated they used brick rather than stud.

I have spoken to the BCO and they are not interested as this is only notifiable if it IS a load bearing wall...which I believe it isn't.

The larder in the kitchen has nothing sat on top of it. I removed some plasterboard and there is nothing there. Thus not load bearing.




Once the larder and under stairs walls are removed there will be a 400mm wide section of wall left linking the back of the larder with the kitchen doorway




The stairs have clearly been installed first, then plaster boarded underneath and then the brick partition wall built up. Because there is plasterboard between the wall and the stair-trimmer, I don't see that this is a load-bearing wall.





The timber structure under the floor at the top of the stairs looks to take the entire load of the stair trimmers and transfers it across into the wall of the house without leaning on the partition below.


Anyone have any thoughts?

[Edited on 2/10/20 by tegwin]





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Deckman001

posted on 2/10/20 at 11:07 AM Reply With Quote
It looks like you will be keeping the part of the wall that the stairs might be supported by so they are secure. I would just make sure that the wall that the clock is on is fully supporting the stairs and is tied into the outside wall correctly so as to keep the wall in check so that it can't fall away under the stairs loading.

I'll wait for a few more specialised members on here for clarification.

Jason

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tegwin

posted on 2/10/20 at 11:14 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Deckman001
It looks like you will be keeping the part of the wall that the stairs might be supported by so they are secure. I would just make sure that the wall that the clock is on is fully supporting the stairs and is tied into the outside wall correctly so as to keep the wall in check so that it can't fall away under the stairs loading.

I'll wait for a few more specialised members on here for clarification.

Jason


Thank you for the comment.

Curiously the wall at the back of the larder does not actually appear to touch the stairs. It's been added AFTER the under-stairs had been plaster-boarded.

The wall above the kitchen door does not appear to directly supporting anything, its got plasterboard across the top of it. It might be acting as a cross member to keep other stuff upright though.

[Edited on 2/10/20 by tegwin]





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pigeondave

posted on 2/10/20 at 11:51 AM Reply With Quote
Maybe worth reading through Part A of the building regs.

The pretty pictures of the walls help me figure out things from time to time

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429060/BR_PDF_AD_A_2013.pdf

Diagram 13 might be worth a look and a general reading up on buttressing walls. Make sure you haven't got too long a run of wall that's not buttressed.

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tegwin

posted on 2/10/20 at 12:33 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pigeondave
Maybe worth reading through Part A of the building regs.

The pretty pictures of the walls help me figure out things from time to time

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/429060/BR_PDF_AD_A_2013.pdf

Diagram 13 might be worth a look and a general reading up on buttressing walls. Make sure you haven't got too long a run of wall that's not buttressed.


Thanks, we do like pretty pictures.

Interestingly I don't have a single full height buttress on the outer wall.

The wall at the back of the larder could be considered a buttress although it is a little shorter than the required 1/6th. The larder wall where the door is could also be a buttress but it doesn't meet the requirements as most of the wall is a door!

Fun and games!





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Bluemoon

posted on 2/10/20 at 01:55 PM Reply With Quote
No expert but what holds the upstairs floor up around the stairs...

Looking at it again, I can see one joist that might need support...

Also, joists spacing must be quite large I can't see a second Joist the photo...


[Edited on 2/10/20 by Bluemoon]

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tegwin

posted on 2/10/20 at 03:17 PM Reply With Quote
The joist you see is separated from the wall under it by a layer of plasterboard. Can plasterboard be considered structural in that kind of layup? I always assumed that plasterboard was pretty shite in compression especially if it got damp.


To the left of the kitchen door is a solid wall that runs as the spine of the house, from that across the top of the stairs and into the outer wall of the house (right of the larder door) is a pretty big piece of timber. The stairs and the corner of the first floor are pinned into that.

[Edited on 2/10/20 by tegwin]





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MikeR

posted on 2/10/20 at 03:39 PM Reply With Quote
Absolutely not my area of any expertise.

I'd look at the floor. What are things built on. Is the brick built on a foundation or ontop of some wood? I'm thinking old houses didn't have concrete floors, so your random brick's might be sitting on wood which would prove they're not load bearing. However, I'd then be looking to see if something has been changed (stairs location) and you've got a bodged solution which might open a bigger can of worms.

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pigeondave

posted on 2/10/20 at 03:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Absolutely not my area of any expertise.

I'd look at the floor. What are things built on. Is the brick built on a foundation or ontop of some wood? I'm thinking old houses didn't have concrete floors, so your random brick's might be sitting on wood which would prove they're not load bearing. However, I'd then be looking to see if something has been changed (stairs location) and you've got a bodged solution which might open a bigger can of worms.


In old houses many a brickwall have been built off floor joists, even floor boards.

You might find that that corner post coning down from the stairs is the one doing all the work. Tw@ it with a hammer and if it sounds like its heavily loaded you might need more investigation.


@tegwin
P.S. new houses use plasterboard to restrain the bottom chord of trussed roofs (its included in their calculations) so it is sort of structural, but not in your case for the wall

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tegwin

posted on 2/10/20 at 04:42 PM Reply With Quote
Hmmm..
Pulled up some more floorboards upstairs and found that the longitudinal trimmer does actually sit on the masonry over the kitchen doorway. Had not looked there before because it seemed ilogical for it to be mid span over the door

The pieces of wall I want to remove are not load bearing but it looks like they may be holding up something that is.....Looks like I need to find me a structural engineer or re-design the kitchen that SWMBO wants....

[Edited on 2/10/20 by tegwin]





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MikeR

posted on 2/10/20 at 05:19 PM Reply With Quote
Structural engineer will be easier and give less grief in the short and medium term

[Edited on 3/10/20 by MikeR]

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pigeondave

posted on 2/10/20 at 05:41 PM Reply With Quote
I think the IStructE has a find an engineer bit to it where you can find an engineer.
Ask for a few quotes and go with an older guy as the kids will just want to over engineer it.

If you can provide a floor plan with the floor joist spans marked on itíll make their job easier and probably save you a few quid.

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steve m

posted on 3/10/20 at 07:54 AM Reply With Quote
I cant post pics of what i did in my kitchen, as i cant find them!

But my kitchen originally had a side wall and side back door that led into a small passage way that led into the back garden
So the kitchen was about 250 cm deep and 350 wide, a very small kitchen for a four bedroom house

The brick wall was 200mm wide, and most definitely not a load bearing wall, and this became evident like you say when i removed the ceiling

so much to my wifes displeasure due to the mess, i knocked it down with a mallet and bolster, took ages, but we now have a kitchen
that is 250 and 450 wide, and its been like that for 25-30 years

If i was living in your house, i would do exactly what your proposing and be done with it, and at the very worst, behind the larder and in the void build
up a false wall to support the stairs

steve





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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