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Author: Subject: Sump plug oil temp yes or no?
pigeondave

posted on 21/1/21 at 02:00 PM Reply With Quote
Sump plug oil temp yes or no?

Hi all,

Hope the New Year is treating everyone well.

I'm looking into having a way of logging oil temp for a DL1 datalogger and was thinking about doing it via the sump plug.

On a zetec blacktop I believe to to be a M14 x 1.5 thread is this correct?

Is there a temp sensor which people recommend? Or is it a case of looking through the internet.

I'd ideally like one with a AMP Junior Power Timer connector as i believe it'll have less chance of dropping the wires and it'll be easier to keep the wet out.

Is there a massive don't do it reason why I shouldn't replace the sump plug with a sensor?

Thanks

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pigeondave

posted on 21/1/21 at 02:15 PM Reply With Quote
im finding things like this, but the length of the thread get me worried
https://uk.farnell.com/avx/94099-00-030/sensor-temp-40-to-150deg-c-m12/dp/2455461

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procomp

posted on 21/1/21 at 02:33 PM Reply With Quote
Had a customers car a month back.

He had a sump plug from either Burton performance or Merlin motorsport cant remember which, but supplied a Zetec alloy sump plug that was then tapped through middle to what ever sensor he had fitted, sure it was a single wire sensor.

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Slimy38

posted on 21/1/21 at 03:50 PM Reply With Quote
I can't help with the original question, but is the sump oil an indication of general temperatures? To me it seems like a lot of oil that isn't circulated too often, in a metal tub that is exposed to wind chill. A sensor nearer the filter would make more sense to me.
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pigeondave

posted on 21/1/21 at 03:53 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
I can't help with the original question, but is the sump oil an indication of general temperatures? To me it seems like a lot of oil that isn't circulated too often, in a metal tub that is exposed to wind chill. A sensor nearer the filter would make more sense to me.


I see your point. I just assumed that it all flowed through there. didn't think of the chilling effects.

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nick205

posted on 21/1/21 at 04:13 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
I can't help with the original question, but is the sump oil an indication of general temperatures? To me it seems like a lot of oil that isn't circulated too often, in a metal tub that is exposed to wind chill. A sensor nearer the filter would make more sense to me.



This seems sensible to me. The sump sits low and gets lots of airflow around it, which will help lower the oil temperature. I'd be inclined to look at where the engine designers/factories fit the oil temp senders and follow their approach. Just my thoughts BTW.

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big_wasa

posted on 21/1/21 at 04:29 PM Reply With Quote
Iíve got mine in the drain hole. canít say if itís an accurate indication but itís showing what I was expecting. I believe the flow rate means itís cycled quickly.
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snapper

posted on 21/1/21 at 06:43 PM Reply With Quote
I found an adaptor that fitted the M14 sump thread and the small oil temp sender in an Pinto alloy sump, been oil tight for years





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gremlin1234

posted on 21/1/21 at 07:18 PM Reply With Quote
I think monitoring it at the sump plug is open to all sorts of variation, the physical sump temp, air flow, oil flow and all.
since one of the functions of the sump is cooling, - many have fins just to do this-
but it should be a good repeatable metric.
my preference would be to mount the sensor on the dipstick



[Edited on 21/1/21 by gremlin1234]

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Oddified

posted on 21/1/21 at 09:20 PM Reply With Quote
On my car i fitted the sensor in the remote oil filter housing with the tip in the oil flow, responds very quickly to changes. I'm not so sure fitting one in the sump plug would be as responsive/accurate but that's only a hunch.
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jollygreengiant

posted on 22/1/21 at 07:45 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234

my preference would be to mount the sensor on the dipstick



[Edited on 21/1/21 by gremlin1234]


Have you EVER had to retrieve an MOT test machine oil temperature probe from around the crankshaft of a engine that was STATIC but running?

Just asking

I HAVE.





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CosKev3

posted on 22/1/21 at 09:10 AM Reply With Quote
Half way up the oil level of the sump is the recommended position for taking oil temp,as this will give you the best average temps.
Hence why dry sumped cars take the temp from the oil tank,the best average and most stable place to monitor it.

Adapter in the sump plug could read slightly lower,as it's the coolest part of the sump when the car is moving.

Positioning in the engine could give you higher temp readings than average.

But I can't see any of them really being much different.

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ttalps2000

posted on 22/1/21 at 09:11 AM Reply With Quote
i run mine in the drain bung on my Zetec. If you want accuracy, dont bother. When you stop in traffic etc, it rapidly rises, as soon as you start moving again at a decent speed, the wind cools the sump and it drops right back again. Its not at all accurate and im looking to move mine whilst the engine is out this weekend.
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James

posted on 22/1/21 at 12:30 PM Reply With Quote
What about inline/tee'd off the oil pressure sender?

Down near the ground is a fairly harsh environment of rocks/debris and I'd be worried about the sender getting damaged or ripped out somehow.





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obfripper

posted on 22/1/21 at 03:09 PM Reply With Quote
Iirc there is an oil gallery plug to the left of the pressure sensor hole, an appropriate temp sensor in there would give a good indication of oil feed temperature.

Dave

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coyoteboy

posted on 22/1/21 at 03:51 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ttalps2000
i run mine in the drain bung on my Zetec. If you want accuracy, dont bother. When you stop in traffic etc, it rapidly rises, as soon as you start moving again at a decent speed, the wind cools the sump and it drops right back again. Its not at all accurate and im looking to move mine whilst the engine is out this weekend.


To be honest that may well be accurate. Variation isn't inaccuracy if the oil is actually varying with airflow and oil flow speed!


You're trying to get an indication of oil temp at the hottest point in its cycle through the engine. And it can take many paths around the engine, some hotter than others. The only common place is the sump, or maybe the pump input. The hottest point could be anywhere. Is it that exactly the hottest spot? No. But if you mount your sensor in the head, how do you know that the crank oil isn't hotter? OR vice-versa? Have a turbo? The oil output from that is probably hottest.

For practicality reasons, and for the sake of +/-5 degrees, the sump plug is going to give you a good answer, and account for its inherent air cooling. ALL the oil goes through the sump, and the pickup is at the deepest point. Why not put it there? IF you're running a system that is so critically on the edge that you need the precise highest temp point, get financing some head and oil gallery drillings and do some investigation to figure out which location is correct, rather than guessing If I were doing it, I'd go head or sump and ensure my cooling was sufficient to give margin. My 370 has the OEM probe in the sump, this is used to pull performance if it goes over 130, so they thought it good enough to base automatic engine protection on it.

[Edited on 22/1/21 by coyoteboy]





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pigeondave

posted on 22/1/21 at 04:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy

To be honest that may well be accurate. Variation isn't inaccuracy if the oil is actually varying with airflow and oil flow speed!


You're trying to get an indication of oil temp at the hottest point in its cycle through the engine. And it can take many paths around the engine, some hotter than others. The only common place is the sump, or maybe the pump input. The hottest point could be anywhere. Is it that exactly the hottest spot? No. But if you mount your sensor in the head, how do you know that the crank oil isn't hotter? OR vice-versa? Have a turbo? The oil output from that is probably hottest.

For practicality reasons, and for the sake of +/-5 degrees, the sump plug is going to give you a good answer, and account for its inherent air cooling. ALL the oil goes through the sump, and the pickup is at the deepest point. Why not put it there? IF you're running a system that is so critically on the edge that you need the precise highest temp point, get financing some head and oil gallery drillings and do some investigation to figure out which location is correct, rather than guessing If I were doing it, I'd go head or sump and ensure my cooling was sufficient to give margin. My 370 has the OEM probe in the sump, this is used to pull performance if it goes over 130, so they thought it good enough to base automatic engine protection on it.

[Edited on 22/1/21 by coyoteboy]


Yep I was thinking along similar lines of, all mixed in the big reservoir at the bottom gives a good average. Putting something in the gallery could potentially restrict the flow.

And finally, the sump plug is the path of least resistance for me, as its the easiest to do when I change the oil later next month.

Seems as though only one person has echoed my thoughts of stones and crap bouncing about underneath causing havoc, so it's probably me being overly cautious.

Thanks for all the help guys
I'll let you know how it turns out.

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procomp

posted on 23/1/21 at 03:50 PM Reply With Quote
As a general rule of thumb, the oil temperature in the engine galleries will be running around 15Deg hotter than the temperature seen in the sump.
THATS assuming the water temperature is running at a sensible 85Deg.
Like most things it is a balancing act as either a high water or oil temperature will affect the reading of both.

Basically a typical engine wants,
water, 75 - 90 Deg before the Rad
Oil, 90 - 115 Deg in the sump,

Other considerations. Air to oil coolers are hit and miss regarding airflow V speed V damage. Water to oil coolers are much more consistent at maintaining oil temp and can be mounted in a non airflow dependent position. BUT will raise the water temperature due to the obvious transfer of heat but this method does help warm the oil from cold far quicker.

My 2p worth.

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snapper

posted on 23/1/21 at 10:31 PM Reply With Quote
Oil temp is only relevant when itís to hot or cold, you want a steady average, oil temp sender in the oil gallery is only one step up from the sump.
Sump - pump - oil gallery then after this does it start to take on heat so IMHO sump temp is the major volume of oil and should be perfectly ok





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steve m

posted on 23/1/21 at 11:54 PM Reply With Quote
How many tin tops have an oil temp sensor ? not many, if the cooling is right, and works, then the Oil temps will follow,

To my knowledge no car on this forum, is pushing mega Bhp, that needs any form of oil temps to be even marginally worried about
Possibly some track cars, but never a road car if driven within the law

steve





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Slimy38

posted on 24/1/21 at 08:43 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
How many tin tops have an oil temp sensor ? not many, if the cooling is right, and works, then the Oil temps will follow,

To my knowledge no car on this forum, is pushing mega Bhp, that needs any form of oil temps to be even marginally worried about
Possibly some track cars, but never a road car if driven within the law

steve


Hmm, my superb has an oil temp reading, I wonder if it's actually an oil temp sensor or just a more accurate version of the temperature gauge. For me I just use it as an indication not to be too harsh on the gas pedal when it's still cold, even though the temp gauge and the cabin heaters show things are warm.

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coyoteboy

posted on 25/1/21 at 11:04 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
How many tin tops have an oil temp sensor ? not many, if the cooling is right, and works, then the Oil temps will follow,

To my knowledge no car on this forum, is pushing mega Bhp, that needs any form of oil temps to be even marginally worried about
Possibly some track cars, but never a road car if driven within the law

steve


I'd say any tracked car would need it for sure, but most others probably not. That said, I'd rather know than not know. It takes a LOT longer to get the heat up in the oil than it does in the water, for example. 1 mile into a trip my coolant is at open-stat point, it can be 5 miles plus before oil even moves the needle.

My 370 sees the oil hit 110C if I'm sat in traffic after using lots of heavy acceleration, high speed alone doesn't really upset iit. Over in the US they have lots of problems with the same exact setup overheating in their higher ambient temps.

[Edited on 25/1/21 by coyoteboy]





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pigeondave

posted on 25/1/21 at 01:15 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
How many tin tops have an oil temp sensor ? not many, if the cooling is right, and works, then the Oil temps will follow,

To my knowledge no car on this forum, is pushing mega Bhp, that needs any form of oil temps to be even marginally worried about
Possibly some track cars, but never a road car if driven within the law

steve


It's just something to do really. I have dusted off an old DL1 which I bought years ago. I'd like to get it running with the car and thought what can I measure with it. I bought the lead which hooks it up to the Canems ECU so I have got that side logging. Oil seemed a good idea.
I think after a bit if a radiator mod I might be running too cold. (I have a bigger Rad than the polo one).

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coyoteboy

posted on 25/1/21 at 04:19 PM Reply With Quote
You can't over-cool if you have a stat? OK that's a slight simplification, but for anything close in size you can't. The stat will open when it's the right temp, and close when it's cooled below it, averaging out at the right flow through to give the right temp. If your rad over-cooled, the stat would shut to let it heat back up. There's a bit of hysteresis of course.

[Edited on 25/1/21 by coyoteboy]





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Angel Acevedo

posted on 25/1/21 at 07:05 PM Reply With Quote
My Ford 5.0 has what looks like a temperatura probe mid sump, so iīd be inclined that is a good location.
As you want to log the Oil Temperature, it is also safe to assume that you will be logging other parameters, and as mid race you may not be able to be checling it every few minutes, it may help after a few runs to set an alarm. If prone to do so, even if the bottom of the sump is not the best place for reasons stated above, it may set off an alarm early enough if the oil is getting hot even if you are losing oil.
Iīm just rambling, I hope this makes sense.





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