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Author: Subject: X/flow oil issues.
Deckman001

posted on 31/5/21 at 06:02 PM Reply With Quote
X/flow oil issues.

Hi all x/flow users. My 1600 has been rebuilt again, new bearings and rings along with a reconditioned head. It runs nice and quiet compared to the last one which is a different story.
I seam to have retained the same oil loss issue though. I am getting quite a mist coming out of the oil filler gause fitted top along with out of the dip stick tube. If i take out the pcv units pipe to the catch tank, the mist comes out there too. There isn't any mist coming out of the catch tank vent.
So,
1, should my empty pcv unit have some mesh gause filler in that too?
2, should I change the pipe from the pcv unit to the catch tank so that the original pressure valve is omitted?( so that the mist can easily enter the catch tank instead of being blocked at the pipe end, the pipe looks to be the original that may have been connected to the inlet manifold so that the valve could be sucked open by the vacuum)

The dip stick tube is also damaged so will need to be replaced, does anyone know what the length should be ?

Jason

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rusty nuts

posted on 31/5/21 at 06:39 PM Reply With Quote
You may well find that after it has done a few miles and the rings bed in it may reduce? I found on mine when it was a standard engine that if I filled to the maximum mark I got smoke from the exhaust. Since rebuilding and modifying I get no smoke but I used a breather elbow instead of the standard breather system which is fed into a catch tank that hasn’t needed emptying at all
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cliftyhanger

posted on 31/5/21 at 08:11 PM Reply With Quote
Did you hone the bores when fitting the new rings? And have you run the engine in with running-in oil or similar?
It is not clear if the PCV is connected to the inlet manifold. It should be, possibly via a sealed catch tank.

Otherwise engine breathing to atmosphere should not have a pcv in it. Just direct to a catch tank that is vented. (mine vents to the air filter box to provide a little vacuum)

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Deckman001

posted on 31/5/21 at 09:04 PM Reply With Quote
Cheers guys, yes the bores were honed as well as making sure the rings were correctly spaced. I think I'll try and find a way to let the valve stay open from the pcv and see if that helps.
Another slight issue of mine is that the dip stick doesn't go fully down since I rebuilt the engine last year as I can't align it into the baffled sump dip stick hole so I just put in just over 3ltrs of oil.

Jason

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chillis

posted on 1/6/21 at 09:05 AM Reply With Quote
If you have a shortened sump make sure there is adequate clearance between the bottom of the sump and the oil pick up pipe. 1/4 inch minimum.





Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!

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JimSpencer

posted on 1/6/21 at 07:58 PM Reply With Quote
Hi

Ok two different solutions for each bit, these are the generally done thing (may be better ways, but this seems to work for the majority!) for Xflows in anything where it's going to get a little bit of stick..

Fit a longer dipstick tube (silicone ones work), with a nice and snug dipstick (you can get generic long ones on the bay of E), cut it to the right length so it's full with 4.5L (depending on sump volume)in it.

Plumbing of the breather:-
Breather pipe off the block (you can get an adapter to lose the PCV valve) and run that direct to the rocker cover, so any 'mist' (or thicker!) gets back into the top of the engine where you want it.
Run a seperate breather pipe from the rocker cover to your catch tank.

HTH

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Deckman001

posted on 1/6/21 at 08:38 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
Hi

Ok two different solutions for each bit, these are the generally done thing (may be better ways, but this seems to work for the majority!) for Xflows in anything where it's going to get a little bit of stick..

Fit a longer dipstick tube (silicone ones work), with a nice and snug dipstick (you can get generic long ones on the bay of E), cut it to the right length so it's full with 4.5L (depending on sump volume)in it.

Plumbing of the breather:-
Breather pipe off the block (you can get an adapter to lose the PCV valve) and run that direct to the rocker cover, so any 'mist' (or thicker!) gets back into the top of the engine where you want it.
Run a seperate breather pipe from the rocker cover to your catch tank.

HTH


Hi ya, yeah it helps, do you know what adaptor i need to use it rather than just trying to remove the disk and spring within the first part pushed into the pcv unit ?

Jason

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JMW

posted on 1/6/21 at 08:55 PM Reply With Quote
https://www.burtonpower.com/breather-elbow-23-5mm-ford-x-flow-691m-711m-ohv-kent-fp280a.html
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steve m

posted on 1/6/21 at 09:10 PM Reply With Quote
As Jim said above,

A take off from the rocker box, as high as you can get it to a small water bottle on the the scuttle, but the same height as the rocker cover
, also take the shitty PCV case of the side under 1 and 2 inlet cylinder, and fit a tube straight to the same tank


The tank will fill with shitty watery oli that is through away, so fill the sump with new 20/50





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Deckman001

posted on 2/6/21 at 09:14 PM Reply With Quote
Cheers guys, great answers once again.

A slight update, I removed the old dip stick tube and put the dipstick back in. it bottomed out with the dipstick collar hitting the tube coming out of the engine block so it must be the correct depth, which means that the sump has been enlarged so that more oil than the std amount is needed. I'll try and sort some more oil hose to replace the dipstick tube and carry on from there.

Jason

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steve m

posted on 2/6/21 at 09:36 PM Reply With Quote
Cheers guys, great answers once again.

A slight update, I removed the old dip stick tube and put the dipstick back in. it bottomed out with the dipstick collar hitting the tube coming out of the engine block so it must be the correct depth, which means that the sump has been enlarged so that more oil than the std amount is needed. I'll try and sort some more oil hose to replace the dipstick tube and carry on from there.

Jason


Errr no !!!

If the dipstick is not going in to the hole. and seating, then the sump is to shallow, on a xflow, there is NOTHING to stop the dipstick going down the tube and sealing with the top ring on the dipstick tube, unless you have a windage tray not cut out for a dipstick

There are three problems here, if the dipstick doesnt go to the bottom, the sump is two shallow

If the sump is to shallow, theres not enough oil in the sump

If not enough oil in the sump, the oil will overheat, and be as much use as having water in the oil system





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Deckman001

posted on 3/6/21 at 10:22 AM Reply With Quote
Cheers Steve, this is why i asked if anyone knew the actual length of the dipstick tube so that I could check mine to see if any of it has perished. The dipstick i have has a bulbous section about where i expect it to be sitting onto the engine tube that sicks out which has the rubber tube pushed over it.

Sorry am pants at describing it as I don't work with engines so just say what I see lol

I'll try and get some pictures of it to show what I mean.

Just found an answer on the Turbosport forum.
" The stick doesn't bottom out on the top ferrule, it hits the the top of the tube that is pushed into the block to set the level of oil in the sump. Then you cut the rubber tube to the correct length so that the top ferrule just touches top ferrule."

Jason

[Edited on 3/6/21 by Deckman001]

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Deckman001

posted on 3/6/21 at 11:30 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
, on a xflow, there is NOTHING to stop the dipstick going down the tube and sealing with the top ring on the dipstick tube,


That's it, that's what I was trying to describe (albeit at a lower point), the dipstick does go fully in and the lower ferrule seats onto the slightly mushroom ended tube that's fitted to the engine block.

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Deckman001

posted on 6/6/21 at 08:46 PM Reply With Quote
Another update, I've fettled the valve of the pcv, and it now lets the oil vapour past it into the catch tank, so quite good I think. Another slight issue crept up when I drove it today, when starting it shows about 40psi, but when warmed up it settles down to about 10psi when idle and stays there when rev'd higher.

Is it likely the oil pump is failing when hot, to be honest, it's probably about 30 years old anyway so probably work out, so would a high pressure pump needed or is a std one still ok?

Jason

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rusty nuts

posted on 7/6/21 at 08:53 PM Reply With Quote
Personally I would replace it especially after all the time and money you’ve spent on it , I did fit an updated one on mine but not totally sure I needed to. My oil pressure is somewhat higher than yours but it was lower until I changed the oil to Valvoline 20/50 after around 500 miles
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Deckman001

posted on 7/6/21 at 09:17 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Personally I would replace it especially after all the time and money you’ve spent on it , I did fit an updated one on mine but not totally sure I needed to. My oil pressure is somewhat higher than yours but it was lower until I changed the oil to Valvoline 20/50 after around 500 miles


Thanks for that info, I've used NAPA Classic 20W-50 Mineral. Hopefully that will do for the first few hundred miles before i may upgrade the oil if i need to. I'll try and arrange a new oil pump this week, but is a std one still ok or should i upgrade it to a high pressure one instead ?

Cheers for any guidance.

Jason

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Mr Whippy

posted on 7/6/21 at 09:42 PM Reply With Quote
As per a previous thread on oil pressure. How sure are you the gauge value is correct, have you tried it on a proper calibrated one? Either the pumps not up to it or the bearings are worn and a new pump will only mask that a bit.

However, if your going to the bother of taking the sump off, getting new gaskets, oil and removing the old pump anyway. For the £50 it costs for a new high pressure one, it doesn't seem to make sense to even bother with the old pump imo.

But personally I'd first take it round to a local garage and ask them to give you a proper oil reading, might save you some time & money.

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Deckman001

posted on 8/6/21 at 03:18 PM Reply With Quote
Good point, The bearings were perfectly new when i rebuilt it last month or so, so should still be fine. When it's first turned over it shows about 40+ psi so am assuming that the sender and gauge would be fine when cold and hot ? Therefore when it's hot, either there is a serious issue somewhere else or parts expand within the oil pump so less pressure is then pushed around the engine?
I seriously don't want to take the sump off again as I've had to remove the engine twice before to do the same in the last 6 months, yes am getting very good and can do it quite quickly now, but am confident the bottom end is fine.
Parts that I have already changed are,
Alternator
Water pump
Dizzy
Coil and leads plus plugs

So the only remaining old parts are the oil pump and the starter (which was new 20 years ago but hardly used so far).

Am thinking it's time to change the oil pump to a new one due to its age, is there any benefit to get a high pressure one rather than a std one ?

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David Jenkins

posted on 8/6/21 at 03:38 PM Reply With Quote
Take the oil pump off and have a good look at its mounting face - you should see the shiny top of the oil pressure relief piston. Use a non-scratching stick and give it a careful prod - you should be able to push it in and out with a reasonable amount of effort. If it's stuck open then you'll barely make any pressure, if it's stuck shut then you may get over-pressure.

If this is stuck then you'll never achieve normal oil pressure (I had to abandon an SVA inspection because of this problem!).

If it does move easily - then at least it's another possible cause of failure excluded from the checklist.





The older I get, the better I was...

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Deckman001

posted on 8/6/21 at 06:37 PM Reply With Quote
Description
Description


I fitted a machine shop gauge and found that at Idle, it read 40psi, but when warmed up it was the same at idle, but dropped to 15psi straight away when rev'd, it returned to around 40psi when the revs returned to idle.

Above is the oil pump as removed. is the pressure relief arrangement under the disc with a hole in it? if so is it just an interference fit so can be prised out without damaging it ? I tried to push down through the hole, but nothing moved.

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steve m

posted on 8/6/21 at 07:33 PM Reply With Quote
I tried to push down through the hole, but nothing moved.

Theres the problem, pressure relief valve is stuck, its been said on here hundreds of times ..............

put the pump in a plastic bag, prize the small washer off with a screwdriver, and the spring will launch its self into the bag

Clean up the piston, spring ect, and refit, and center punch the mating surface around the washer 4 times, to clamp it in
if the relief valve as ANY scratches, buy a new pump, you will never sort the pressure out with scored or damaged relief valve





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Deckman001

posted on 8/6/21 at 08:41 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
I tried to push down through the hole, but nothing moved.

Theres the problem, pressure relief valve is stuck, its been said on here hundreds of times ..............

put the pump in a plastic bag, prize the small washer off with a screwdriver, and the spring will launch its self into the bag

Clean up the piston, spring ect, and refit, and center punch the mating surface around the washer 4 times, to clamp it in
if the relief valve as ANY scratches, buy a new pump, you will never sort the pressure out with scored or damaged relief valve


Great description Steve, many thanks, that'l be my job tomorrow evening if i get back in time.

Jason

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Deckman001

posted on 9/6/21 at 06:03 PM Reply With Quote
I took it off, and as advised I put it in a bag and then removed the spring cover. Great advice that Steve, it probably saved me a couple of hours looking for the spring !!
the plunger under the spring was stuck so a few taps at the top and then the side of the pump if loosened it enough to drop out back into the bag. so I have cleaned it up and it now slips in and out nicely. Just to get confirmation from someone though, there wasn't anything behind the plunger, just oil and a passage, should there be a spring on either side of it or is it just oil pressure pushing against the first spring?

Jason

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steve m

posted on 9/6/21 at 08:37 PM Reply With Quote
Thats all the bits in there, metal piston, spring and retaining washer, if the pressure isnt much better, you can buy a higher pressure piston, and spring from burtons, or do what we all have done, and add a small washer under the spring-piston





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Mr Whippy

posted on 9/6/21 at 08:48 PM Reply With Quote
It's always good to find something wrong...
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