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Author: Subject: Troubles finding neutral - 08 R1. Asking for improvement ideas
woodsy144

posted on 2/6/24 at 03:32 AM Reply With Quote
Troubles finding neutral - 08 R1. Asking for improvement ideas

Hello all. I have a 08 R1 in a mid engine configuration. I currently have a push pull cable and a extended shift lever on the engine.
I am currently finding it difficult to find neutral. I am suspecting that the 'bind up' in the push pull cable may have something to do with it, but going to a solid linkage system is currently not easy to do due to engine location and shifter position on the engine.
Anyway, would love some input.

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adithorp

posted on 2/6/24 at 06:52 AM Reply With Quote
I've got rod operated paddle shift on my 06 R1. It's awkward to avoid going straight through neutral and works best using both hands to control/retard that movement. It gets easier the more you use it.

You need to eliminate as much friction as possible (so high quality Teflon lined
cable), as little free play/lost movement in connections as possible and
in the case of push/pull cables, very stiff outer cable mounts.

Have you eliminated the neutral start logic so that you can start in gear if necessary?

[Edited on 2/6/24 by adithorp]





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TimC

posted on 3/6/24 at 11:44 AM Reply With Quote
Its hard to explain unless the slipper clutch plays a part but the 4C8 (bearing in mind I had two engines so not a one-off) was harder than the 5VY.

I had to (using a rod system) more-or-less one-inch-palm-punch it from 2nd into N.

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ReMan

posted on 8/6/24 at 06:36 PM Reply With Quote
Cable or solid linkage, neither will be that different, unless there is something badly wrong with them.
Also bear in mind that getting neutral is not always the easiest with the engine in a bike before you beat yourself up too much!

So yes, it might be worth replacing the cable, but also reviewing how tight the bends are in it and that there are no twists aded in to the inner cable as this will definitely play a part in operation and how quick it wears out the outer cable.

Mine (cable operation) works well enough, but even so I often pre-empt neural from 2nd when coming to a halt as this makes it easier than waiting until at a stop to then find it.

As above, is it wired to start in gear, or is this why finding neutral is a big issue?





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woodsy144

posted on 12/6/24 at 07:27 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I've got rod operated paddle shift on my 06 R1. It's awkward to avoid going straight through neutral and works best using both hands to control/retard that movement. It gets easier the more you use it.

You need to eliminate as much friction as possible (so high quality Teflon lined
cable), as little free play/lost movement in connections as possible and
in the case of push/pull cables, very stiff outer cable mounts.

Have you eliminated the neutral start logic so that you can start in gear if necessary?

[Edited on 2/6/24 by adithorp]


I have tried to eliminate as much as possible.
I am looking at eliminating the logic, that is something we are looking at, how did you do it?

And to answer your question ReMan, I am concerned if I stall it, i will find it hard to restart in traffic cause I can not find neutral. So bypassing that neutral logic is something I want to do.

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adithorp

posted on 12/6/24 at 09:28 AM Reply With Quote
As I remember (and its a +16yrs ago) the logic circuit needs either the neutral switch on or both clutch and side-stand switches on.

I think you need to connect the clutch switch wires together and earth the side stand switch.

Or earth the neutral switch feed from the logic relay and (if using neutral light) connect the neutral light wire from the clocks to the neutral switch direct if your using them.

[Edited on 12/6/24 by adithorp]





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adithorp

posted on 13/6/24 at 09:22 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodsy144
quote:


And to answer your question ReMan, I am concerned if I stall it, i will find it hard to restart in traffic cause I can not find neutral. So bypassing that neutral logic is something I want to do.


This is definitely something you should be concerned about. If you stall it then it can be impossible to get the gears to change and find neutral. I has that issue and that's why I changed mine.

From my notes it looks like I earthed the neutral wire. I then connected the dash neutral feed direct to the neutral switch so that it still worked. I did it that way I think, as it was easier than unwrapping the loom to fing the sidestand and clutch switch wires.





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woodsy144

posted on 14/6/24 at 02:38 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by woodsy144
quote:


And to answer your question ReMan, I am concerned if I stall it, i will find it hard to restart in traffic cause I can not find neutral. So bypassing that neutral logic is something I want to do.


This is definitely something you should be concerned about. If you stall it then it can be impossible to get the gears to change and find neutral. I has that issue and that's why I changed mine.

From my notes it looks like I earthed the neutral wire. I then connected the dash neutral feed direct to the neutral switch so that it still worked. I did it that way I think, as it was easier than unwrapping the loom to fing the sidestand and clutch switch wires.


I was able to get my hands on the workshop manual and wiring diagram.
All this start control logic is in the starter relay.
Both the neutral switch and the kick stand needs to be put to earth in order for the logic in the starter relay. Noting that the neutral light on the dash goes through this relay.

So steps I did.
1. Unpin the "neutral switch in (light blue)" & "neutral switch out (light blue with white dots)" out of the relay and joined together - this enables the neutral light on dash to still work
2. Connected "neutral switch in" pin to ground - which will enable the starter relay to always think its in neutral and enable start in any gear
3. Connect "kick stand (blue with black dots)" pin directly to ground - enables me to remove this part of the loom

This now works.

Next steps. I will put a clutch switch inline between the these new grounds and the starter relay, meaning the clutch will have to be in before starting. Just a safeguard.

Base image of wiring diagram - 11 is the starter relay plug, 12 is neutral, 13 is the kick stand

https://flic.kr/p/2pXf29U

modified wiring diagram
https://flic.kr/p/2pXh9yy


[Edited on 14/6/24 by woodsy144]

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Mr Whippy

posted on 14/6/24 at 08:42 PM Reply With Quote
I was thinking that perhaps you could increase the strength of the selector detent spring so that you can feel better when it is in a gear, I know I used to struggle on one of my bikes as the slightest knock with my foot or even the engine vibration could knock it out of neutral once found.





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adithorp

posted on 15/6/24 at 09:31 AM Reply With Quote
You don't think you need "3". It works either neutral or clutch+stand.

Adding a clutch switch to the earth isn't the worst idea but it does mean you have to get in the car to start it. It's pretty unlikely that the starter has the power to start it in gear. There might be occasions when you want to fire it upwithout getting in; Maybe when working on it or to warm it up





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