geoffreyh
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 12:16 PM |
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Pagani rear suspension design?
Is there someone who can help me figure out how the rear suspension of the pagani zonda is working?
It looks like the top part is pointing to the back and the lower wishbone is pointing straight outwards but I can be wrong.
I think this suspension is adapting toe-in and out when it's moving up and down.
I'm attaching a picture.
Cheers,
Geoff
 
Rescued attachment paganirearsmall.jpg
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 12:24 PM |
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i bet it has so little travel that the angles barely change.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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Guinness
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 01:24 PM |
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I don't know, but I'll check mine, when I remember where I left it
Mike
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Avoneer
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 01:28 PM |
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No, but it's a lovely piece of engineering.
Pat...
No trees were killed in the sending of this message.
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 02:05 PM |
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Its was a Girraffe
this bit looks a bit flimsy, anyone think?
Zonda weigh in at over a ton doesn't it?
[Edited on 27/11/05 by liam.mccaffrey]
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akumabito
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 02:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
Its was a Girraffe
this bit looks a bit flimsy, anyone think?
Zonda weigh in at over a ton doesn't it?
[Edited on 27/11/05 by liam.mccaffrey]
Closer to 1 1/2 ton I believe... what's the point of building an all-carbonfibre vehicle when you're putting such a huge and heavy engine
in the back??
[Edited on 27/11/05 by akumabito]
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 02:51 PM |
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because they can. Its a great car either way  Carbon for bling, 600+ bhp to make it move
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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stevebubs
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 04:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by akumabito
quote:
Originally posted by liam.mccaffrey
Its was a Girraffe
this bit looks a bit flimsy, anyone think?
Zonda weigh in at over a ton doesn't it?
[Edited on 27/11/05 by liam.mccaffrey]
Closer to 1 1/2 ton I believe... what's the point of building an all-carbonfibre vehicle when you're putting such a huge and heavy engine
in the back??
[Edited on 27/11/05 by akumabito]
So you don't end up with a 2 ton vehicle...
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tks
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 04:32 PM |
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mhh
dunno maybe it are high grade ones? or even titanium ones??
anyway its not all realy well in scale..
using an 2M10bolts...but an huge lump of an 'ally' lever???
alse the bracket look like realy thinn material...
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 05:34 PM |
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it was specifically the bracket I had reservations about
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geoffreyh
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 05:48 PM |
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Those brackets won't be too bad as I never heard from a big crash with a Zonda.
I started this thread because Jeremy Clarkson once said in Top Gear it was one of best handling cars he ever drove.
If there were some of those cars in my neighbourhood I would have checked it already a long time ago but until now I will have to base my information
on pictures.
Cheers,
Geoff
[Edited on 27/11/05 by geoffreyh]
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akumabito
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 05:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by geoffreyh
I started this thread because Jeremy Clarkson once said in Top Gear it was one of best handling cars he ever drove.
[Edited on 27/11/05 by geoffreyh]
He also said that about the Ariel Atom.... and the Atom doesn't use some mystery-suspension...
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geoffreyh
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 06:15 PM |
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That's true but I think they chose for another type of suspension because of the power / torque and weight combination.
The Atom has a lot of power but no weight.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Chippy
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| posted on 27/11/05 at 11:28 PM |
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I read somewhere that this car has anti dive, and anti squat geometry, so the strange angles at the back are almost certainly something to do with
that. I dont see much wrong with the mounting bracket, especialy when you look at the Locost bracketry.
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:16 AM |
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I suppose i expected it to look more substantial, i mean it wouldn't look out of place on a locost
My excuse is the type of work i do everything has to be belt braces and bits of string
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andygtt
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 12:48 PM |
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I'd say its just as likelly that the angle is like that to maximise the wishbone length ie a compromise.
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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tadltd
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 11:45 PM |
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I'd assumed that the wishbone angles help to steer the rear of the car during cornering...
\ \ (front)
/ / (rear)
...however, toe-ing out at the rear seems at odds with convention; in a straight line at least.
In saying that, the Pagani is hardly conventional!
Best Regards,
Steve.
www.turnerautosport.com
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physician
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| posted on 28/11/05 at 11:49 PM |
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it is the main pivot, and it have a secont toe link
my quess is that its to induce some toe in while the suspension compress like when cornering, and some toe out while the rear of the car goes up when
you brake hard before starting to turn in.. may give a feel of a leghter car..
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kb58
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 02:05 AM |
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I thought rear toe-out was always a bad thing...
At the moment I have mine set to toe in, in both bump or droop, so I guess I'll see if I've outsmarted myself, considering I really
haven't driven it yet...
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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physician
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 03:00 AM |
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it's just my extrapolation.. probably give a little toe out to help steer .. may not have a great range
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tadltd
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 09:24 AM |
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Convention suggests that toe-in at the rear is peferential as it aids stability when braking, and - when accelerating - the rear wheels want to
toe-out so a touch of toe-in helps counter this.
However, when cornering both sides are doing opposite things (one side in bump the other in droop). If the suspension is designed to give toe-out when
compressed (i.e. the loaded side), then designing the other side to give toe-in when uncompressed generates a wee bit of rear steer, which can
be beneficial.
Best Regards,
Steve.
www.turnerautosport.com
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andygtt
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 04:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
quote:
Originally posted by Chippy
I read somewhere that this car has anti dive, and anti squat geometry, so the strange angles at the back are almost certainly something to do with
that. I dont see much wrong with the mounting bracket, especialy when you look at the Locost bracketry.
I've said this many times, but.....
Have a good think,........ What holds the car up?........the springs. What stops it dropping down? The springs!
Now explain how angling the wishbones changes the way the springs hold the car up. All the angled wishbones do is balls up a perfectly good wishbone
setup.
Dive and squat are functions of CoM height and location, leading to weight transfer longitudinally. Changing the wishbone angles cannot affect that in
any way, shape or form. If you want less dive or squat, use harder springs, or lower the CoM. See modern racecar designs for confirmation. Wishbone
inner pivots all parallel to c/l, and ground.
I'd be looking for a geometry reason for the angles, and leave the anti dive/squat in Mr.Staniforth's book, where it belongs.
Syd.
I'm no expert but you also need to consider that this uses inboad dampers so the effective rocker ratio on the top wishbone varies the spring
rate depending upon possition of wishbone.....
Its the fact that you have to consider every varient that I decided to use an expert that understands it fully rather than risk it messing it up
myself.
I still think that the top wishbone angle is purelly down to the best possition to attach it to the chasis and maximise wishbone length.
If the lower one is parellel to the cars C/L then I'd be even more sure of it as in this instance its the angle of the lower wishbone that will
be more critical as it will hold the upright in two possitions (top only holds it in one) therefore dictating its movement the most.
Its all supposition though, until you have all the details its impossible to work out what its actually doing.
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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andygtt
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 07:55 PM |
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I wasn't specifically talking about the wishbone angle only that the rocker ratio on it does change the effective spring rate as the speed it
moves the spring increases on compression and thus the top wishbone on this car does effect the spring.
As you say I recon the angle is purelly down to compramise.
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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andkilde
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| posted on 29/11/05 at 10:22 PM |
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You'd need to see what the bottom wishbone was all about to be certain about how the upright will function -- from the looks of it, the toe link
is at the front of the upright so if the bottom inner wishbone pivots are parallel to the chassis c/l the wheel will toe-in under bump (same as the
Porsche Weissach axle or Mitsubishi's, best forgotten, 4ws system from the early 90's), if the bottom wishbone pickups are parallel to the
top it should keep the wheel straight throughout wheel travel.
The anti squat/dive geometries (with apologies to Syd) are all about having the wishbone pivots at different heights fore and aft.
Cheers, Ted
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Stephant
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| posted on 30/11/05 at 06:42 PM |
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anti squat
Hi
Anti Squat has nothing to do with "old scool of thinking",but is mainly used on FWD Cars as it gives more traction ,but
makes rear wheel driven cars more difficult to drive at the limit.3° is said to be the useble maximum.The mini is one of the best handling FWD cars,so
have a close look at the front axle.Alec surely was no fool?!
Best regards,Stephan
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