andrews_45
|
| posted on 15/4/06 at 10:58 PM |
|
|
Engine Preperation for 750mc locost
Right I have my 1300 xflow straight out of a dirty escort. Just sat down and worked out how much everything will cost to get this ready for dropping
into my locost chassis, and my bottom jaw fell to the floor 
First off I aint aiming to be at the front of the grid (far from it) just dont wanna get dicked by everybody, it would be great if I can compete at
the back. I worked out what I thought would be needed to prep my engine; Just wondered if I am right...
New carb service kit, P103/4 cam, new gasket set, new Dizzy (old one flucked), new plugs, pistons and rings to suit +60 re-bore, valve seat inserts,
k & n filter, new rockers and rocker shaft, new big end bearings, new oil pump and a Silicon hose kit. I priced all this up from Burtons and it
comes to £792.34 for parts alone!!.
In addition I will need numerous machine shop work inc... re-bore, valve seat inserts, recutting the valves,re-cutting the valve guides and a cam
shaft re-grind, gues that will be about £200.
Now I am thinking about just servicing the carb, putting in the P103/4 CAM, changing gaskets, trying to fix my existing dizzy and oil pump, new set of
plugs, leaving the bores at standard size (my engine has only done 53'000 miles), and new big end bearings, and new silicone hoses... This
would work out considerably cheaper at about £412.50! Now would I be wasting my time with this and doing the rest of the work after a season spent
learning?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Ta
P.S. I plan to do all work other than machining myself
|
|
|
|
|
Nick Skidmore
|
| posted on 16/4/06 at 07:43 AM |
|
|
I would shop around rather than get everything from Burtons. Or if you do push them for a discount, but I guess that a £700 spend isn't a big
deal for them, even if it is for you.
Also engine prep. race or otherwise isn't cheap, I run a dry sumped Busa that has just had a £1400 re-build for the sake of 3 knackerd gears and
a dodgy selector fork!! £521+vat in parts, rest was labour and my engine builder isn't expensive. The engine swallowed up near 10k to do in the
first place inc. carbs and management.
Just trying to give you some perspective.
There are people on this forum that know just about the cheapest places to get the bits.
They will no doubt fill you in on the details
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 16/4/06 at 08:47 AM |
|
|
I'm about to build a Locost engine very soon. There's a lot of talk about how Randalls 'interpret' the grey areas of the
rules. Here's my take on it, someone please tell me I'm wrong. 
Full +090 rebore..this ups compression to max.
Deck the block to the lowest piston, then machine the other three down to match. (Only three allowed to be altered.)
Then the 'grey' bit on pistons. 'Ford 1300 pattern', with 13mm deep bowl. Doesn't give bowl volume, or define
'pattern' too well. There's room for some creative interpretation here. Hence, some extra compression.
Then the head. Ahhh, back to FF1600 days. Not a lot you can do as the rules say 'standard'. But, you can make the ports around the valves
the same id as the valve seat inners, then maybe a little blending of that cut with the port. If done a little 'roughly' may end up
looking 'standard'. New seat inserts, maybe left a few thou proud, to stick the valve out a bit, and pick up a little more compression.
Also, use the thinnest insert with the biggest ID. Valve gear... Plenty of FF tricks there too. But rules say specific ratio. Just make sure all are
equal and the biggest ratio attainable.
Little else that can be done to increase power, beyond using a standard oil pump blueprinted.
If Randalls are going more than this, there's room for the scrutes to have a look.
The word 'standard' occurs far too often in the rules for too much leeway.
Cheers,
Syd.
|
|
|
Peter Cowley
|
| posted on 16/4/06 at 09:27 AM |
|
|
give component engineering a call in hapton near burnley. They did my crossflow full bottom end and head/assembly for a bit it less than your
'parts' price.
He advertises in classic ford mag and his party piece is bda/g engines. He still does a lot of the head work for minisport (contracted out to
him)....and has done thousands of crossflow in years gone by. In fact my engine had never been rebored, and he'd not seen that for quite a few
years.
Its not the glitziest of places but he knows his onions, and will build you a superb engine......just give him a call and have a chat. He can get
parts a lot cheaper than i could.
Peter.
PS im not connected in any way, just a satisfied cusomer.
|
|
|
D Beddows
|
| posted on 16/4/06 at 10:03 AM |
|
|
To rebuild the engine it will cost you over £1000 wherever you go. You can get parts quite a bit cheaper than the prices at Burtons - my local Partco
was very helpful (they're not all so helpfull though so try a few if the first one doesn't want to know). Still wont get you any change
from £1000 though.......
To be honest your plan B sounds reasonable enough - just don't spend anything you don't have to (and you will be tempted ) on the
'getting you going' engine because you'll be wanting the all singing all dancing version immediatley after the first qualifying
sesion you do.
The main thing you need to aim for is just getting on the grid - you'll want to change everything anyway once you're there but
you're in no position to know what bits to change and for what until you are and start talking to people.
Syds engine sounds about right if you're doing it properly - I believe people have moved on to fiddling with ignition systems now though.......
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 08:58 AM |
|
|
Fiddling with the ignition system........Here goes.
You're only allowed a distributor based system, although points can be omitted for an electronic trigger and transistor system.
It takes a lot of time 'hit and miss or trial and error' with advance weights and springs.
Then the other option is to build your own transistor system, similar to what you can get in a kit from Maplins. (or used to, anyway.) With the
transistor system, advance can be fiddled with capacitors and other things my sons seem to understand way beyond me. It is also possible to
incorporate a Capacitive Discharge capability, without things being too obvious. But is this within the rules, and the 'spirit'? Probably
not.
As far as I can make out, the rules need to have some additions.
1. Piston bowl capacity.
2. Piston deck clearance measurement.
3. Maximum valve throat diameter.
4. Maximum valve protrusion.
6.Specified coil.
7.Specified distributor/transistor pack or spec something like Lumenition as only alternative.
These should be very easy to write in for next year, and should not worry anyone who is staying within the 'spirit' of the class and
rules.
For those outside these parameters, it is going to cost a fair few pounds to put right. But then, they've spent more than 'a fair
few' to get what they have, so a bit more won't hurt, and only helps to even things up moreso.
Cheers,
Syd.
[Edited on 18/4/06 by Syd Bridge]
|
|
|
TimC
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 09:18 AM |
|
|
All this equates to exactly the reason I'm not going Locost Racing - I just can't bring myself to spending ££££ on a 85bhp engine just to
be competitive with 'those who wish to push the boundaries of the rules' - I just don't think it's in keeping with the
original concept.
Can't help thinking that mandatory sealed engines as used in some one make formula would be progress.
|
|
|
Syd Bridge
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 09:34 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by TimC
All this equates to exactly the reason I'm not going Locost Racing - I just can't bring myself to spending ££££ on a 85bhp engine just to
be competitive with 'those who wish to push the boundaries of the rules' - I just don't think it's in keeping with the
original concept.
Can't help thinking that mandatory sealed engines as used in some one make formula would be progress.
I agree wholeheartedly!!!
I can nearly do all of this in my own workshop, so it is not costly, just time.
Most others are not so well equipped or fortunate.
The few rule additions I suggested would put a stop many of the 'loopholes'.
Checking actual valve lift would be another.
The flywheel lightening could do with some clearer definition as well.
Cheers,
Syd.
|
|
|
D Beddows
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 09:58 AM |
|
|
It's motor racing! 'Locost spirit' is a very noble concept, unfortunately lots of people aren't that noble and are actualy far
more interested in winning. Sadly you like it or lump it as the 750MC are never going to properly check everything - been there, tried to change it,
got nowhere.
A few of us tried the 'Locost spirit' approach to engine building a few seasons ago and basicaly it stopped us winning races, wasn't
any cheaper and trying to get everyone else to play fair too didn't make us very popular either. Would I take the same stand again knowing what
I know now? - no, I'm afraid not (which is sad I agree)
|
|
|
TimC
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 10:21 AM |
|
|
quote:
It's motor racing!
I'm well aware of this, I just think it's a bit sad - a bit like taking steroids in the Olympics.
I visited Procomp to talk about a race car- was well impressed with them, their knowledge and their chassis. However, I realised that for the time
being (due to the costs involved) I'd be better off building a BEC track car and doing track days.
It's gutting as I really want to go racing. Such is life...
|
|
|
ernie
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 11:00 AM |
|
|
Well I have sat on the back of the grid for much of last season and this so far. Where there were heats have made the finals thru good my good fortune
and others bad luck/driving. My enginge pushes out around 82 bhp and cost 1100 from Vulcan. I check the oil, valve clearance & points after each
race meeting. Comparativly cheap racing. I have a great time, yes there are those who race to win and if I had the finance and skill so would I. The
paddock spirit is the best I`ve been involved with and as a result of freindy advice this weekend, knocked 2sec of lap times just thru driving
better.so go and do it , its great fun to be involved.
|
|
|
DickieB
|
| posted on 17/4/06 at 04:37 PM |
|
|
No-one ever said racing was cheap! Locost should perhaps be called "LowerCost" - it's all relative, and I've not found any
other championship that is cheaper (and I've looked quite hard). And whilst on the subject of cheaper, it is not just money but time as well. I
can maintain a Locost easily and cheaply myself - and with very little time used up. This is at times a more limiting factor than money (although
only rarely admittedly). If anyone is lucky enough to have much more time than money - then go and get a 2nd job and use the extra money to go
racing!
|
|
|
andrews_45
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 06:04 AM |
|
|
Thanks for the input chaps, I have pretty much decided that I am just going to strip, clean and rebuild the engine to 750mc spec. Other than that it
will be completely standard. This will get me onto the grid and then I can focus on spending money when it is needed.
Unless anybody can convince me otherwise I was going to try and re-build the standard dizzy...
|
|
|
procomp
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 08:10 AM |
|
|
Hi my responce to locost racing being not locost is pretty much the same as dickie b . A new car will cost any where from 6-10 k and be competative .
A seconhand car will cost any where fro 2.5 - 6.5 k with a load of spares. Maybe not locost but for the best uk race championship and racing where the
top 10 finishers cross the line in under 3 sec's there is nothing else like it except possibly catarham racing which is a little bit more
pricey. A full seasons running costs is about 4k. Not really locost but certanilly lowercost effective.
Only 85 bhp but a well set car will leave most road going locost with 170 bhp standing still. Price of a good front running engine should not cost
any more than 2 k proffesionally built.
cheers matt
|
|
|
stevetzoid
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 03:59 PM |
|
|
Why not just have a BHP limit for the car, at the wheels like on a dyno with a set limit eg 85 BHP any more than that and your out on your ear,
Do the reg's not say genuine ford parts for piston's and other parts so how can you get round the bowl size?,
Regards Steve Evans
Building Locost to race.
|
|
|
ned
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 05:12 PM |
|
|
been there done with championshipd that worked ona bhp or power to weight classes/regs.
its expensive and impossible to police. no one trusts anyone elses dyno figures as they're so easy to fudge and some cars were ballasted so much
the owners started to complain about the brakes etc etc not being designed for it.
success ballast is probably one of the better ways to even up the playing field with anyone deemed to have a seemingly unfair advantage. applied
either in special circumstances or to the top 3 finishers and kept for a race or two then dropped if they don't finish as high up next time sort
of idea.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
|
|
|
Jon Ison
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 05:28 PM |
|
|
I was once involved with beach racing, 1 great rule I liked, the top 3 championship cars had too be put up for sale at the last meeting for a fixed
price......... engines ect where sealed at start of season too prevent a quick engine change last but one meeting, it worked. Maybe a bit ott for
locost and circuit racing though.
You would get more out of the car spending £500 on some race tuition rather than £500 on the engine.
|
|
|
simes43
|
| posted on 18/4/06 at 10:58 PM |
|
|
There is little point spending half of whats needed only to have to spend it all again in the short/mid term. A false economy in racing terms.
Buy a Randall engine, make sure the cars on the weight limit, test, research the subject and use expert advice/equipment on suspension set up.
The 750mc makes the difference by being great value for money when compared to the BRSCC etc. The cars are not cheap at all.
|
|
|
GParkes
|
| posted on 19/4/06 at 11:28 AM |
|
|
Going back to the original post, I am assuming that you are new to racing and that the budget is limited, therefore rebuilding the standard engine
will be fine, as previously mentioned you will go quicker by investing in some tuition/testing rather than building an engine that puts out a few more
bhp! When following front running cars I have noticed that power isn’t a problem its my speed through the corners where I lose ground!
How much to spend depends on what you want out of it. If you have previous racing experience and want to have a car that is capable of running at the
front then you need to spend the money that Matt has mentioned.
One thing to do when the engine is built is go to a rolling road which will make sure you get the best out of the engine. Different ignition timing
can drastically alter the power output (I have seen cars massively down on power due to having the timing miles out!)
Instead of silicone hoses a quick walk round a breakers yard should get several good hoses for about £10, which can then be connected up using
aluminium tube, it works on my car!
Gavin
|
|
|
andrews_45
|
| posted on 19/4/06 at 12:18 PM |
|
|
Aye, completely new to motorsport.
I am thinking that the extra money I'll save getting my engine competative will be better spent on some track training. Then hopefully next
summer I can get the engine race prepared, by somebody that is skilled at such things.
I think the best idea would be to have the car completed and racing, then buy a second engine and get it up to top spec while still learning in the
basic engine. Then when ready swap the 2 over and bring them up to the same spec.
Initially the money saved could go towards a bit of track instruction. Was thinking about going to Knockhill for a long weekend (with my car on a
trailer) and ask 'Ian Forrest' for some 1 to 1 tuition (he was very impressive on 'a car is born'
|
|
|
GParkes
|
| posted on 20/4/06 at 12:25 PM |
|
|
Sounds like a good plan. Also, as crossflows aren’t very complicated you can build a top spec engine yourself (obviously with the machining done by
others). There isn’t always much difference in price to buying one from someone like Randall, but I found the experience very useful.
|
|
|
