pajsh
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:05 PM |
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Pinto Camshaft Choice?
I'm currrently trying to choose a camshaft for my 2.0 pinto replacement that is being ported at the moment and will probably be bored out to
2.1.
Having read around a bit in prev posts Dave Andrews guide suggests picking a cam with high lift and shorter duration but Des Hammil says the pinto is
less sensetive to longer durations.
I only have 40's atm but am considering bike carbs as a later upgrade. I have megajolt installed but not running yet.
I'm considering one of the following:-
Kent FR30 1000-6000 RPM 11.93 lift 260 duration 20/60 60/20 timing
Piper BP285 2200-7000 RPM 11.81 lift 270 duration 27/63 73/37 timing
Burton BF134 11.64 lift 266 duration
Other possibilities include
Kent FR21, 31 and 32 but these tend to have lower valve lifts or longer durations
Any one any experience or recommendations?
Realistically I will be using it for fun road use most of the time and the occasional track days when the brakes are upgraded.
I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
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RichardK
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:11 PM |
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FR31 is in mine, but haven't run it yet!
Regards
Rich
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viatron
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:12 PM |
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used to run the 285 in our old MKII escort rally car, was very happy with it, wish i still had that car.....sigh
Mac
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jacko
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:12 PM |
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Kent fr 33 or piper 285  i have a 285 fitted and would not use any thing milder then that
Jacko
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mookaloid
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 09:14 PM |
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FR33 would be good for a 2.1 wih a gas flowed head will still pull from low down and opens up the top end a bit too.
I have tried the FR31 but it definitely didn't have the go that the FR33 has
I would imagine that piper has an equivalent if you prefer those
You are doing a fair bit of work there, why strangle it with not enough cam?
Cheers
Mark
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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TangoMan
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 10:20 PM |
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I m running a Piper 285 on bike carbs and it is a good choice.
I can drive around town in 4th at 2000rpm quite comfortably and yet it still pulls around to 6500
I don't think I would go any wilder because unless you are going to scream it you won't see any real benefit.
Summer's here!!!!
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GlynC
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 10:20 PM |
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Did mine earlier this year
Got my cam and followers from Newmans
In my opinion they offered a good cam with the right balance of lift and duration.
Goes extremely well now and you don't have to rev it hard. Alo when I spoke to the various manufacturers Newmans were the only people who
questioned me on what I was doing and trying to achieve... most just wanted to flog me a new cam!
http://www.newman-cams.com/
I used a PH4
hope this helps 
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SixedUp
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| posted on 13/11/06 at 11:48 PM |
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I have an Emerald Phase 4 from Newmans too. Very nice cam indeed. Pulls well from low down, and just keeps on going, and going, and going. Worth
talking to Newmans ... they're friendly, helpful, and really know their stuff. They'll help you decide between the various options, based
on what you want.
Cheers
Richard
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DarrenW
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 09:05 AM |
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Ive used FR32 and to be honest its a bit mild. Head is mildly ported but block is stock std so that may be partly the reason (may respond better to
some lightening and balancing).
FR33 is known to be a better choice. I was also recommended recently to use Piper A8 but not looked this up to see the differences.
If i get more work done on my head ill be looking for something a bit wilder.
Its worth reading up about valve train geometry if you are doing some serious head work, from what ive read so far getting this wrong can negate the
advantage of the new cam. Get it right along with good porting and the engine will be a flyer.
Cheers,
Darren.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 09:58 AM |
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for an everyday road car the piper 285 (or kent equivalent) is a great cam.
It pulls from tickover to quite a lot and goes well with a std bottom end on the engine i.e. no need to rev it loads.
Possibly even a bit too grunty low down for a seven, often you'll find it nicer to spread the power further up the rev range at the expense of a
touch of low down if the car is very light, but then that depends on what you are doing with it.
Having watched mookaloids video (have a look yourself) doing a hillclimb, whatever he has done to his pinto is good and works, it has bags of torque
which appears to be spread almost perfectly for the traction of the car.
Main thing to remember with cams is don't go over the top on a road car, (which is advice that you will hear from everywhere and still ignore
when it comes to ordering, I've done it and you'll regret it!! ) and there is no point over camming an engine on a std bottom end, as you
just narrow your available power band.
An engine with decent mods, held back by a mild cam still drives really well and feels great, an engine with too much cam for the flow that the head
can generate drives awfully, feels fluffy and horrid.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 02:52 PM |
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Sorry to hi-jack the thread but....
what If I am fitting a set of bike throttle bodies ?
I'm planning a 2.1 bottom end with a mildly ported (standard valves) head skimmed to give a 10.5 ish CR and GSXR 750 throttle boddies.
Was looking at a Kent Cams FR34 kit but this seems to have a relatively short duration.. is this best for fuel inj ??
FR34 - 263' inlet duration
FR33 - 300' inlet duration
Piper 285 - 270' inlet duration
Newman PH2 - 284' inlet duration
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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NS Dev
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 02:56 PM |
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as long as you are using a TPS based system not a map sensor system then it makes no odds, same cam as with carbs will be fine.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 03:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
as long as you are using a TPS based system not a map sensor system then it makes no odds, same cam as with carbs will be fine.
Should be able to go a touch wilder with FI and mapped igntion compared to carbs.
My friends Mi16 engined Pug 205 rally car has 300 degree duration cam IIRC and yet even with an ultralight flywheel it idles reaonably well and is
very tractable. It is overcammed for the current bottom end though, rev limit is at around 8500 and power is still climbing, so short stroke steel
crank and bigger pistons on the way!
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robertst
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 03:40 PM |
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oh man, i was convinced a higher duration was better according to what i understood from Des Hamill's book. i had decided on Burton's BF30
road/rally camshaft with 300deg duration and .460 lift... is this a stupid choice? it will be used mainly on the road but as a weekend blat car...
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pajsh
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 10:04 PM |
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Thanks for all the advice.
I'm concerned not to overcam as stated as I realistically won't be thrashing it all the time and don't want to loose traction low
down.
The FR33 seems a bit wild to me compared to the Piper 285 and the FR30/31/32. I had discounted anything with a lower rev range above 2500.
The Piper A8 looks wild at 304 degrees and 12.70mm valve lift. Similar to Kent RL30 and FR33.
I'm thinking Piper 285 atm as a good compromise of lift and duration and see where I get from there. Kent don't seem to have an equivilant
as either the valve lift or timing are different.
I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 10:39 PM |
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All i can tell you Pajsh is that the FR32 i have fitted seems quite tame and civilised. FR33 has been quoted as a better choice, Piper A8 doesnt seem
too far away from that.
From what i have seen the normal Escort great cams arent the same in our cars. We have after al spirrited cars so spirrited cams seem the order of the
day which takes us past the fast road type bot certainly not up to the full race range.
Piper A8 was recommended by a reputable engine builder. Another uses FR33. Neither recommends FR32 (bugger!!! as that is what i have installed). It
would also appear that the wilder cams can be controlled with 3D mappable ignition.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 14/11/06 at 10:45 PM |
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I have an FR22 (old equivalent of the FR32) fitted to mine, as i was originally using an DGAS carb, now i have fitted 40's I wish i had fitted a
FR33 form the comments made here, at least its a fairly easy swap if i decide to do it once i get it on the road.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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NS Dev
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| posted on 15/11/06 at 08:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pajsh
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm concerned not to overcam as stated as I realistically won't be thrashing it all the time and don't want to loose traction low
down.
The FR33 seems a bit wild to me compared to the Piper 285 and the FR30/31/32. I had discounted anything with a lower rev range above 2500.
The Piper A8 looks wild at 304 degrees and 12.70mm valve lift. Similar to Kent RL30 and FR33.
I'm thinking Piper 285 atm as a good compromise of lift and duration and see where I get from there. Kent don't seem to have an equivilant
as either the valve lift or timing are different.
I take it your car is now 2.0, not still 1.6??
If its a 1.6 then remember it will be correspondingly easier to overcam!!
a 285 will be plenty enough on a 1600
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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pajsh
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| posted on 15/11/06 at 08:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Main thing to remember with cams is don't go over the top on a road car, (which is advice that you will hear from everywhere and still ignore
when it comes to ordering, I've done it and you'll regret it!! ) and there is no point over camming an engine on a std bottom end, as you
just narrow your available power band.
An engine with decent mods, held back by a mild cam still drives really well and feels great, an engine with too much cam for the flow that the head
can generate drives awfully, feels fluffy and horrid.
Cam is for 2.0 rebuild. Car has 1.6 in still.
Still think I'll go for the Piper 285 and then go from there. I am tempted to go wilder but taking you advice above.
Bottom end will not have major mods, just lightened flywheel, balanced with crank and possible bore out to 2.1.
With only having 40's I'm not sure if they might end up being the limiting factor.
ATB
I used to be apathetic but now I just don't care.
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jacko
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| posted on 15/11/06 at 08:52 PM |
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Hi Pajsh when i modded my pinto i asked bogg brothers there advice about cams with bike carbs fitted they said to go for a piper 285 or a piper a8 if
i fit a big valve head . my engine has had
rebore +60th
head planed by 1mm
modded head [ ported ect]
lightend flywheel
zx9r bike carbs
modded dizzy
+ a vernier pulley
It has 140 bhp at the wheels -
I hope this helps you
Don,t forget to check clearances piston to head etc
Jacko
[Edited on 15/11/06 by jacko]
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/11/06 at 09:45 AM |
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I bought my cam off a guy who had just had his tiger rolling roaded. The FR32 had only ran a few hours when they took it out in favour of a FR33.
Maybe that should have told me something at the time.
Dont get me wrong the FR32, im sure, is a big improvement over std and is certainly civilised around the town. I cant say how it compares to a std cam
as ive never had the pleasure (old cam was buggered so i was forced to change during the build).
Knowing what i know now, and from talking to 2 reputable race engine builders with practical experiance of the Pinto i would defo fit either Piper A8
or Kent FR33 when i evenually throw cash at the head.
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 16/11/06 at 08:51 PM |
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I am running standard injection, does this exclude the favoured cams, I know that Kent FR34 is the recommended cam, but what would happen if I fit a
FR33 or a Piper A8?
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/11/06 at 11:35 PM |
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Interesting question Mark. I guess what you are getting into is the key differences between carbs and EFi. In my mind carbs are a crude(r) fuel
metering device that normally use basic injection. EFi however tends to be a more accurate method. In my mind the rules for cams should be the same,
the only issue being perhaps that some EFi ECU's dont allow the tweaking to make such changes to be of full effect.
So in short i would think if you have mappable management then you should be able to change cams as per carbs fuelling. The problem would seem to be
that few locosters would have the resources to do the comparative analysis and determine the true facts. Give it a go if you can get a cheap cam.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/11/06 at 09:11 AM |
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Using a mapable EFI system tuned to suit a carb cam ?? (or 'mimic' carbs if you like)
I can't help thinking that you'd just be better of with carbs
but does anyone know what cams the guys racing EFI pintos use ?
eg: http://www.wilcoxengines.demon.co.uk/pinto.htm
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DaveFJ
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| posted on 17/11/06 at 01:48 PM |
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Well I'm still in the dark... I am sat here with my credit card in hand wanting to order my cam kit but still don't know what to order to
work well with 2.1 Pinot on GSXR throttle bodies and Megasquirt......
Help - I want to spend the money before the wife gets her hands on it!
Dave
"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always
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