russbost
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 12:02 PM |
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Lithium Ion batteries - testing the water
I am looking at stocking some lithium ion batteries. They are a direct replacement for motorcycle batteries & come in the standard size bike
battery packages eg YTZ14s, YT12A-BS, YTZ12S are common sizes.
These lithium ion units can charge with any standard bike charger (it's important NOT to use a sophisticated charger with anti- sulphation cycle
as this can damage them) & will be perfectly fine charging from normal bike or car alternators, come with 2 year guarantee, completely sealed
units & no acid so no spillage issues.
They have nearly double the cranking power of a standard lead acid unit of comparable size (Ah).
They weigh around 1/3 of a normal bike battery, so a major weight saving, even more so if replacing a car battery, price will be around £140 - £160
depending on exact spec
Would be interested to hear peoples thoughts as to whether worthwhile (would have thought it's a must if you're racing!) & how many
people would be likely to buy?
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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blueskate
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 12:27 PM |
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yep registering my interest 
Semper Paratus!
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v8kid
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 12:48 PM |
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Yup interested if the cranking amps are as good as the Hawker type batteries for less weight. Need more details and comparisons though.
Cheers!
Edit
How does it compare to _
PC 680
680 cranking amps for 5 seconds
595 cranking amps for 10 seconds
525 cranking amps for 20 seconds
Short circuit current over 1800A
17Ah
25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load
[Edited on 20-8-12 by v8kid]
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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BenB
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 12:55 PM |
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Lithium batteries are the dogs. All my power tools are Li-ion and my leccy r/c planes all use li-polymer batteries. Lightweight, powerful and (now)
cheap. They burn quite spectacularly but by the time the battery is on fire it's all a bit irrelevant anyway.
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russbost
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 01:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Yup interested if the cranking amps are as good as the Hawker type batteries for less weight. Need more details and comparisons though.
Cheers!
Edit
How does it compare to _
PC 680
680 cranking amps for 5 seconds
595 cranking amps for 10 seconds
525 cranking amps for 20 seconds
Short circuit current over 1800A
17Ah
25 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load
[Edited on 20-8-12 by v8kid]
Difficult to make exact comparisons as they don't give me all of that info - at the moment they don't seem to do anything bigger than
around 11.5Ah, tho' I would have thought that's probably more than adequate for most cars on here, with the probable exception of large
capacity lumps, the cranking power is given as 40CA+, so for an 11Ah battery that would give over 460A, but no info as to what time that would be
over, I think it's fair to say that that is not comparing like for like tho' as I'd guess the weight of a 17Ah lead acid as being
around 9 - 10kg?, A normal bike lead acid of 11Ah is around 5Kg & these are 1/3 or less of that so I would wxpect a weight of less than 2Kg!!!
I will be trying one on my Furore in the next few weeks; that usually kills the engine when the electric reverse is engaged & that is currently
with a car battery (063) so will be interesting to see the comparison
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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maccmike
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 01:30 PM |
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who's the guarantee with? you or manufacturer?
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russbost
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 01:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by maccmike
who's the guarantee with? you or manufacturer?
That's an interesting Q & one that I will have to check up on, my supplier has been selling them to the trade for around 8 months now &,
I believe have sold several thousand with no comebacks as yet, I did specifically ask the Q as to whether thay had had any returns & was assured
not. Unfortunately my point of contact is away on hols this week & I'm away next, so won't be able to confirm immediately - I would
anticipat that in the event of a failure the product would be returned to them via myself - at least they're relatively cheap & easy to post
as light & nothing to leak.
TBH I would have thought most likely cause of failure in a 2 year period would be down to a faulty charging system or short circuit, there's
less to go wrong than with normal lead acid & they have a suggested cycle life (without significant performance degradation) of 2000+ cycles - I
believe the equivalent spec for lead acid is around 300 cycles?
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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stevegough
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 02:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Lithium batteries are the dogs. All my power tools are Li-ion and my leccy r/c planes all use li-polymer batteries. Lightweight, powerful and (now)
cheap. They burn quite spectacularly but by the time the battery is on fire it's all a bit irrelevant anyway.
Got to agree with you - I bought a twin pack Makita drill set 4 years ago which is now totally useless as the batteries are NiCads and have given up.
Tried to get some replacements - Li-Ions aren't available for it, and replacement NiCads are £50 each - that's a lot when the 2+2 set and
case was only £99!
On the other hand, I bought a Hitachi drill a couple of years ago when the Makitas started giving problems - that has 2 x Li-Ions and is a cracking
drill - you can charge them from part - charged, leave them for months and they don't drain away (apparently! I use it most days, so I
haven't put this to the test!). They are also far lighter.
Having said that, coming back to the thread question - I wouldn't be wanting one of Russ's batteries for the kit - I'm happy with
the ordinary Bosch I have got. - Sorry, Russ!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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ashg
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 03:40 PM |
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bonfire waiting to happen in my experience.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 04:10 PM |
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Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their
charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The
beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap
top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead
acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures
specification.
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v8kid
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 05:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their
charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The
beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap
top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead
acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures
specification.
Don't these batteries come with a charging circuit built into each cell?
I can see your point if you are recycling laptop batteries! However new lion batteries on ebay imply that the charging cct is built in or are these
adverts stretching the truth
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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trikerneil
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 05:08 PM |
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I have a 12V 22Ah Lithium Ion battery to run my CPAP breathing gear overnight when camping. It is only a kilo or so and has replaced a small car
battery.
Cost me £200 last year though.
Neil
ACE Cafe - Just say No.
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Dusty
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 06:08 PM |
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Do they cope with being parked up and left for three months in winter in a cold garage? Or would you have to disconnect, bring inside etc.
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 06:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
Messing around with lithium batteries is far removed from lead acid jobbies.I got a lithium powered leccy bike for the past 3 years.Their
charge/discharge topology is strict.Never charge above 4.2V per cell and Never discharge lower than 3.0V.Bad things happen if you do believe me!The
beauty about lion cells is you can parallel them and hence get shed loads of current in a tight package.In true locost tradition,i use discarded lap
top batteries.9 times out of 10 its the charge controller that packs up in them cells are usually fine.And I dont recommend charging them with a lead
acid charger.They need a charger with a constant voltage of no more than 4.2V per cell and a constant current of the battery manufactures
specification.
Don't these batteries come with a charging circuit built into each cell?
I can see your point if you are recycling laptop batteries! However new lion batteries on ebay imply that the charging cct is built in or are these
adverts stretching the truth
Cheers!
Yes and No! Some purpose built lion batteries do come with a built in BMS (battery management system) therefore expensive and in my experience they
are unreliable and when they do fail,it's uneconomic replacing a toasted BMS.Cells in the battery pack would still be OK.Much more cost
effective an intelligent charger than the control electronics built into the battery..IMHO of course!
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russbost
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 06:36 PM |
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12V 22ah sounds like an absolute bargain at £200, are you sure that was £200 not £300!!!?
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Do they cope with being parked up and left for three months in winter in a cold garage? Or would you have to disconnect, bring inside etc.
My understanding that losses due to standing/cold weather etc. are much less than with traditional lead acid
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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russbost
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| posted on 20/8/12 at 06:47 PM |
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Some replies seem to be getting somewhat confused, as I understand it there are significant differences between lipo, lifepo & li ion; reference
to bonfires waiting to happen, broken BMS etc etc are really not applicable to mass produced batteries already established in the marketplace, albeit
in a tiny %age at the moment, & specifically designed by major manufacturers with massive R & D budgets for the market they are aimed at,
I'm not suggesting I supply some second hand laptop cells with a dodgy bms knocked up in a shed by a mate!!!
These batteries would be coming from a major manufacturer who has been selling them for around 8 months already with no faulty units!
So far as I can establish the only way to explode these batteries is to set fire to them, tho' I wouldn't suggest shorting them out would
be a good idea either  ! I don't think a lead acid battery in a fire is exactly devoid of fumes & the potential to explode either if you
set fire to it! If you use the wrong charger, ie one with anti-sulphation cycle, then you don't blow the battery up, tho' you might
knacker it. The batteries are obviously designed to work with alternators fitted to existing vehicles.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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trikerneil
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| posted on 21/8/12 at 05:29 AM |
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Oops! sorry, is a 12V 22Ah lithium polymer battery.
LINKY
Neil
ACE Cafe - Just say No.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 11/9/12 at 11:01 PM |
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So do they or dont they come with full over and under voltage protection, charge control and SC protection? IIRC Lion cells come in 3.7 and 3.8v
nominal (11.1 and 11.4 with 3 cells), undervolting at ~8.5v. Max charge voltage of 12.6ish so if they didnt i suspect theyd have had a few bonfires by
now. How is cell balancing done?
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RickRick
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| posted on 12/9/12 at 06:00 AM |
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The cheaper battery for camping is probably not suitable for the high cranking amps of starting something, our rc car batterys vary quite a bit price
wise, same capacity, different current rating.
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 27/9/12 at 12:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
So do they or dont they come with full over and under voltage protection, charge control and SC protection? IIRC Lion cells come in 3.7 and 3.8v
nominal (11.1 and 11.4 with 3 cells), undervolting at ~8.5v. Max charge voltage of 12.6ish so if they didnt i suspect theyd have had a few bonfires by
now. How is cell balancing done?
One needs a thorough read of the manufactures specifications of these batteries.
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russbost
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| posted on 27/9/12 at 02:19 PM |
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Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these, tho' I have now done some testing - posted a link to the video on my facebook
page a few days ago, in case you missed it
Here
I effectively short circuit one of the little (4Ah lead acid equivalent) Li Ion batteries across the electric reverse starter on the car with no ill
effects whatsoever
The batteries are specifically designed for the motorcycle market (tho can obviously spill over into the car & kitcar market), they have been on
sale from the manufacturer I believe for around 2 years now, from my supplier for around 8 or 9 months. My supplier has had no faulty units returned
& the manufacturer has no reported bonfires. If they weren't under & over voltage protected I rather think there would be lots of web
reports about them, people aren't usually backward in coming forward with this sort of thing - I can't find any for any batteries of this
type.
Obviously if you take a battery with no short circuit protection & abuse it with a short circuit it is hardly surprising if it goes up in smoke!!!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Fatgadget
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| posted on 27/9/12 at 02:34 PM |
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quote:
Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these
Alarm bells right there!
Why not?...How you gonna sell something without knowing it's full specifications?
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russbost
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| posted on 27/9/12 at 04:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Fatgadget
quote:
Unfortunately they don't give us full spec sheets for these
Alarm bells right there!
Why not?...How you gonna sell something without knowing it's full specifications?
Because it's made as an exact replacement for an existing product!
If you want to use it for something other than an exact replacement then you would need to look at the realistic requirements of that use, if an 8Ah
lead acid would do the job, then the 8Ah equivalent Li Ion unit would also do the job
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 2/10/12 at 07:32 PM |
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quote:
I effectively short circuit one of the little (4Ah lead acid equivalent) Li Ion batteries across the electric reverse starter on the car with
no ill effects whatsoever
Couple of points though:
1) Your reverse motor isn't even close to a full short, but a full short would do serious damage to the inside of the cells and cause capacity
damage. We work with smaller cells, but these can have half their lifespan wiped off by slipping with a connector for a fraction of a second. But
that's not the point of the short circuit protection as the damage is done in an instant, the point of the SC protection is to stop the
fireworks when the cell eventually vents (frayed cable grounding it etc).
2) Again, if there's no over-voltage protection it means you'll be damaging the cells and risking a fire, especially in the rather harsh
world of car electronics with large variations in voltage. It may have it built in but I'd want to know first. The "it seems to work for a
couple of years" method isn't really ideal when you're spending that much.
I'm not talking about broken BMS, this can happen to any battery but even so a well designed system should not allow a flare situation to occur.
What I'm asking is what does it have? Having been part of an attempt to make just such a replacement with integral BMS and all the
current/voltage capabilities of the original I know it's actually hard work (we found it ultimately too expensive to do properly to be worth
bothering for the market we were aiming at), so if it's done properly I'd love to know what the specs are, what voltage is runs, what
balancing methods it uses etc (Just out of curiosity, I'm not in that role anymore!). Call me picky, but when we supply batteries they come with
everything from extended capacity tests, shelf life test data, full schematics and thermal testing etc. Maybe I expect a bit much but a halfway house
would be nice
[Edited on 2/10/12 by coyoteboy]
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