DarrenW
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 10:48 AM |
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Tune Pinto or swap for 16V??
Keeping on the locost theme, how would someone go about trying to get a healthy and reliable 180BHP out of a Pinto???
I have already read Dave Walkers thread about rebuilding to 2.2 and am very tempted.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=23342
(Is this the same Dave Walker that writes in PPC??)
Where iam stuck is;
1. What head will be required to maximise a 2.2,
2. How to fuel it to get the best out of it.
3. What sort of power is possible.
Of course iam aware of where i can buy a turnkey engine from but the costs are well outside my budget. it is for this reason that a Cosworth head and
steel internals are out of the question. Any locost advice appreciated.
Reason for not wanting to change to another engine is that i will need to replace bonnet (exhaust cutout etc unless i can utilise hole for another
vent) and i already have a very good exhaust system. However if budgets work out i suppose i could sell the exhaust for good money, also sell engine
and fund something like a VX XE (which is what i originally thought about) or a zetec. For now id like to explore Pinto options before counting them
out whilst i have plenty of time.
Masybe the XE boys can give me an idea of costs for VX power to get around 180BHP.
My aim ultimately is to have a car with M3 EVO levels of performance for a lot less cash.
Cheers,
Darren.
[Edited on 22/3/06 by DarrenW]
[Edited on 23/3/06 by DarrenW]
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stevebubs
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 10:50 AM |
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quote:
(Is this the same Dave Walker that writes in PPC??)
No - this is a different Dave Walker...
[Edited on 22/3/06 by stevebubs]
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:01 AM |
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get a 2.0 zetec or whatever suits etc from a scrap car cant imagine it would be that much few hundred quid then get a new bonnet
so all in all for 500 quid you could have a almost 150hp engine with a good induction kit etc etc the simple mods
or spend all that money on the pinto the first etc 15% power is generally cost effective after that it starts to get expensive
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PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:01 AM |
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the redtop should give out 180 bhp standard with carbs or tb's
[Edited on 22/3/2006 by I love speed :-P]
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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mookaloid
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:06 AM |
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Hi Darren,
We can have a chat on Monday at Teesside, I might even give you the phone number of my personal cylinder head wizard!
Cheers
Mark
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:22 AM |
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Zetec + Rover inlet manifold +megasquirt -- won't cost a lot
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DarrenW
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:24 AM |
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Thanks Mark, iam looking forward to that. If you feel up to scary some unsuspecting passenger......
I have always considered my current engine as a get-through-SVA-then-plan-a-winter-project lump. i have some niggles in my head that i have to
fulfill,
1. i loved the acceleration of my M3. The ZR isnt that far off already but i will never be satisfied!
2. My Dad is planning a bike engine swap - i simply cant be left with less power but iam a car engine man and want torque.
3. I have limited engine experience - the pinto would satisfy my ambition on this score (i have been brought up on 6V's and injection - even
carbs are a new world to me),
For now ill exhaust the Pinto investigation before making my mind up. i just keep thinking about what ive spent to date (£475 exhaust system, £100
engine, £150 head rebuild, £110 new ignition system plus others ive forgotten about like clutch, micra alternator - oh poo ive shocked myself now).
Half of me is angry for not just fitting a 16V at the outset, the other half is telling me to cut my losses and change direction before spending more
cash.
What puts me off the 16V route is that there doesnt seem to be a straight forward way to do it and i never have time to rake thro scrap yards for the
hard to find bits.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:41 AM |
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Can be quite satisfying tuning the engine yourself, and 180hp is achievable from the pinto, though not easy!
Mookaloid's guidance will be pretty good as I seem to remember that his engine makes some beans for a pinto.
VERY careful (but not big) porting, big valves and a decent cam will be the mainstay of the job, backed up with the sorting of the bottom end so it
will rev.
Mark will no doubt be best to give you an idea of costs on that lot.
My pinto "development" never went above 145hp, in the sierra road rally car, which was basically std bottom end with lightly ported head,
piper 285 cam with double valve springs and std valves, with 4-2-1 manifold and 38 dgas carb or 32-36 dgav carb depending on mood (32-36 was nicer on
the road, 38 had no choke plates in it and was jetted nicely for top end but was moody on light throttle, could have rejetted it but just plopped the
32-36 on for normal driving!)
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 11:41 AM |
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Pity you had't went for a CVH the the Zetec head can be drilled to take a CVH exhaust.
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Kissy
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 12:58 PM |
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Pity you mentioned exhaust - otherwise I'd have said Turbo + Megasquirt'n'spark.
What about picking up a supercharger?
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Hellfire
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 01:02 PM |
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Darren, your Dad's got the right idea  You too should follow in his footsteps.
Sorry, saw the chink in your armour and just couldn't resist it. I did try though....... honest..........
Phil
[Edited on 22-3-06 by Hellfire]
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Kissy
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 01:05 PM |
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Assume weight isn't an issue seeing as you have started with a boat anchor!
Try these guys, plenty of Pinto experience. I got a Crane hot-rod spec cam with sintered followers off them a few years back: that with a 4-2-1 and
twin 45s got decent power:
Anderson Racing Engines
01761 472524
Unit 8d Timsbury Ind Est
Bath, BA2 0HQ
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DarrenW
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 01:28 PM |
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Very interesting Nat. What you have described is basically what i have now. I know mine needs setting up properley which is basically all i will do
this year. Im hankering for a winter project at the moment.
Supercharging - i have to admit this has crossed my mind seeing as there are no end of Cooper S chargers for cheap on ebay. Something to think
about.
Ref bike engine - have to admit i have thought about it. Cant knock the idea especially after seeing those dragstrip vids. I might keep that in mind
when im rich and fancy the 9R workz. For now im more in mind to keep the ZR as designed - ie a CEC.
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James
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| posted on 22/3/06 at 02:10 PM |
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Quite an interesting article on tuning the Pinto here:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pinto.htm
HTH,
James
[Edited on 22/3/06 by James]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 09:28 AM |
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Ive been doing some sums.
Spend to date on power plant is just over £1000 (with engine, head mods, carb, exhaust, ignition, alternator etc etc).
Modding to 2.1 would cost £250 for machining, £150 for lightened flywheel and gaskets etc to put bottom end together, further £200 for better head
mods, possibly £250 for better carbs = approx £850 for maybe 155bhp
Modding to 2.2 would need better carbs set-up and better head mods so could add another £500 = £1350 for maybe 175bhp.
Convert to XE (someone check my maths please) - Engine £150, bell housing £170, exhaust £500, dizzy £50, carbs £300, ancils £100 = £1270 for 160bhp
(although i would split my current set up to try and get good cash back).
With throttle bodies and ECU approx +£1000 for 180 bhp.
I guess zetec would be about the same.
All of a sudden engine tuning and swapping becomes very expensive. As said before i need to find an unfinished project that is getting stripped, owned
by someone desperate for cash.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 10:03 AM |
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Hi Darren,
I'd revise those XE costs a bit........
Engine £250 (worth spending more for a good one!)
Bellhousing £140, but you could use a carlton/manta gearbox, so no need for one then, and a carlton box is £40 ish.
Throttle bodies and ECU - £400ish for ECU kit, £90 for GSXR throttle bodies, £150 for fabricated manifold, £100 for "other assorted bits"
and £200 for rolling road, you're looking at a grand fully set up and ready to go, but you will net around 200hp, not 180! Don't even
consider carbs, the costs will end up similar.
You can do the exhaust for a lot less than £500 as well. As you are already SVA'd, you don't need a really quiet (read expensive) can, and
the manifold, as long as you can put up with mild steel painted one, can be done for £250 for a really nicely done DIY one with bought in mandrel
bends.
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Ive been doing some sums.
Spend to date on power plant is just over £1000 (with engine, head mods, carb, exhaust, ignition, alternator etc etc).
Modding to 2.1 would cost £250 for machining, £150 for lightened flywheel and gaskets etc to put bottom end together, further £200 for better head
mods, possibly £250 for better carbs = approx £850 for maybe 155bhp
Modding to 2.2 would need better carbs set-up and better head mods so could add another £500 = £1350 for maybe 175bhp.
Convert to XE (someone check my maths please) - Engine £150, bell housing £170, exhaust £500, dizzy £50, carbs £300, ancils £100 = £1270 for 160bhp
(although i would split my current set up to try and get good cash back).
With throttle bodies and ECU approx +£1000 for 180 bhp.
I guess zetec would be about the same.
All of a sudden engine tuning and swapping becomes very expensive. As said before i need to find an unfinished project that is getting stripped, owned
by someone desperate for cash.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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DarrenW
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 11:01 AM |
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Thanks Nat - ive been waiting for you to coma along!
Ok so 200bhp XE power approx £1,700, maybe £1800 by the time ive factored in engine mounts, hoses, clutch, wiring odds and sods. 600 Kg wet weight
ish. 330BHP/tonne - thats more like it!!! (Old M3EVO was approx 221bhp/tonne).
I bet i can do it cheaper........ need to investigate further. Sounds like winter after next project now. Plenty of time to collect bits and forget
about the costs! This idea get me back to my original plans. I went for Pinto cos it should have been cheap! I should be able to sell my bits though
to recover costs when the time comes to swap over.
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John.Taylor
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 12:39 PM |
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Why not buy a Nissan 200SX and pull out the running gear. They're good for 270bhp without getting into serious mods and you could go even
further at a later date if you hanker after more power. 340bhp is still within the realms of affordable.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 01:02 PM |
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but I among others have a VERY strong dislike of turbos.....great for pub conversation, not great for driving fun!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Cazzy R
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 01:52 PM |
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Go for Throttle bodies & EFI (megasquirt?)
fit a madder cam & add nitrous to taste.
Drive it till it explodes and replace it with another scrap yard pinto.
Repeat process until Duratecs are in your price bracket.
Retain throttlebodies and ECU and adapt to Duratec.
Duratec & Pinto inlet/exhaust are on the same side so no body mods required.
Hey the exhaust mught even fit with a bit if encouragement!
Cazzy R
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dnmalc
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 08:25 PM |
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Bach to your original query I have seen 1600 heads prefered to those on 2.0ltr as they are said to have better swish bands. This does not seem to be
covered in the above.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 23/3/06 at 10:55 PM |
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better squish, too much compression on a 2.0 but easy to open the chambers up to get a nice compression. Small valves which are a different length to
the 2.0 ones which make changing them a pig, basically if you are building a "from scratch" competition pinto then yep start from a 1600
head casting, but there is a LOT of work doing it that way.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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DarrenW
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| posted on 28/3/06 at 02:48 PM |
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I had a ride out in Mookaloids car yeterday. OMG what a nice car. Iam very highly impressed. This has put a whole new perspective into my ideas
for future development. I asked him how much power it has (like you do!), 150bhp was the reply. Oooh, i said, i could do with some of that, i slight
pause followed until he told me the immortal words - at the wheels and from a 2.0. The best bit is it can be done in 3 stages. first 2 without having
to lose any driving time, third one involves removing the block. Sounds so simple. Im dehydrated now from all of the salivating!!!! Who said the Pinto
was a sad boat anchor, ive found a very lively one.
Thanks again Mark for the ride out. Its all well and good theorising but having some experience is what counts.
Ive now also realised its all well and good having loads of power but if you cant puut it down then theres no point to it. Can anyone recommend some
good driving lessons????
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NS Dev
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| posted on 28/3/06 at 02:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Can be quite satisfying tuning the engine yourself, and 180hp is achievable from the pinto, though not easy!
Mookaloid's guidance will be pretty good as I seem to remember that his engine makes some beans for a pinto.
Just quoting myself with a "told you so"!!
Much as I like my XE 16v's, nowt wrong with the old boat anchor as long as you can wade through the sea of tuning bull5hit and speak to someone
that has actually built one that makes the right power.
good luck with the tuning, I think that's the way you're going now isn't it and I can't say I blame you!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Cazzy R
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 posted on 29/3/06 at 04:59 PM |
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Spotted a new mag in the newsagent:
Retro Ford its called if I remember rightly, anyhow there is a Pinto tuning article that is a bit more than the usual theory and pretty pictures that
is the normal fare. They actually had a Pinto engined essy on the rollers and took readings with the std DGAV and then swapped to 45's. The
gains were large without other mods even though the engine was only mildly tuned (got to over 150 bhp). I only had a quick squint at it in the shop so
they may have done more mods. Probably worth the cover price if your into tuning Pinto's.
Cazzy R
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