jps
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 02:57 PM |
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Selling a car when it no longer exists?
An odd one this, but perhaps someone has experience of it. I stand to be corrected on all of the following:
The way I see it a 'car' in the sense of a road going lump of metal only legally exists as such because the DVLA say it does and paperwork
exists to say it is so. E.g. a car which has passed IVA but not been registered with DVLA isn't technically 'a car' in that
sense.
Does the reverse logic work? A car is built by Ford, driven around for years before being stripped for parts and cut up into small bits but
isn't registered as 'scrapped'. At what point does it stop being 'a car'?
This is a long way of asking: Is my donor V5, proof that the car once existed (VIN plates and photos of it being disassembeled), and enough bits to
justfy an age related plate (steering, gearbox/diff/driveshafts/brakes/hubs etc) still 'a car' and can I sell it as such, or will I get in
trouble with the authorities somehow...? What if it is really just the V5 and the vin plates (given the real difficulty of proving that specific parts
like drive shafts or hubs came from a specifc car..?)
If I can sell it, is it worth anything much to anyone?
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Stott
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:19 PM |
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You could sell it to someone as a car and transfer the v5 over, if you had photos of the donor too, then yes it would be enough to get an age related
plate providing all the numbers match.
No idea on worth though, depends on parts remaining and condition etc
Edit: selling v5 and vin plates alone is a no no due to ringing but if it comes with the parts from that specific donor inc engine with matching
number and you sell it to a kit builder who knows what they are getting into then IMO that's ok
[Edited on 13/12/12 by Stott]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:23 PM |
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Selling them isnt illegal, but its how the person may use them that can be illegal.
Mistral Motorsport
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chillis
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:35 PM |
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If it had no V5 to start with then as far as the DVLA are concerned it never existed - However since it did physicaly exist albeit as an 'off
road vehicle' some proof of ownership would still be required legally. (cars do get stolen before they get registered:-o
Conversely if the car was used on the road and had a V5 then it existed and unless the V5 is returned to the DVLA continues to exist. If you intend to
use this V5 as the 'donor' for a kit car you may be asked to provide some other proof that this was the donor if there is any doubt. Again
using donor parts that are of the type (exact type), and the donors original engine (or reciept for a reconditioned exchange of the donors engine)
should be sufficient for you to gain an age related plate but it does seem a lot of agro just for an age related plate, which is likely to be of
little or no value.
Lots of kits are on Q plates so its not the 'stigma' that might befall a mass produced car on a Q.
[Edited on 13/12/12 by chillis]
Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:36 PM |
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When is a car no longer a car.
Only when it has had a "Certificate of Destruction" issued.*
If you scrap a car and accidentally lose the VIN plate then presumably you can never get a certificate of destruction, so it becomes some kind of
undead monster that you can't see, touch or use, but requires SORNing forever.
*http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/regulation/65470.aspx/
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blakep82
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
When is a car no longer a car.
Only when it has had a "Certificate of Destruction" issued.*
If you scrap a car and accidentally lose the VIN plate then presumably you can never get a certificate of destruction, so it becomes some kind of
undead monster that you can't see, touch or use, but requires SORNing forever.
*http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/regulation/65470.aspx/
i had a car that was in my grandma's garage, joy riders nicked another car, and set it alight in front of the garage with my car in it, setting
both alight. I had a few photos of my car burnt out, but number plates were melted, no pictures of vin or anyhting. grandma's neighbours son
(who i've never actually met, big mistake) offered to tow the car for me, which i agreed to as it saved me bothering with it. I still had the
V5, and no car, and couldn't find the neighbours son anywhere. the neighbour put me on to him too.
anyway, couldn't pass the V5 on to the scrap yard, so i wrote to DVLA, with V5, pictures of the car and explained what happened, and they wrote
back within a few days to say they've marked it as scrapped/destroyed for me, and keep the letter in case of any trouble.
and what about burnt out cars you find in weird places, down steep banks/valleys but have been left. something must happen to them to remove them from
DVLA
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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jps
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:54 PM |
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As always, cracking LCB feedback! It was the 'is it ringing or is it legal' point I was a bit worried about.
quote:
Originally posted by chillis
If you intend to use this V5 as the 'donor' for a kit car you may be asked to provide some other proof that this was the donor if there is
any doubt. Again using donor parts that are of the type (exact type), and the donors original engine (or reciept for a reconditioned exchange of the
donors engine) should be sufficient for you to gain an age related plate but it does seem a lot of agro just for an age related plate, which is likely
to be of little or no value.
[Edited on 13/12/12 by chillis]
That's the thing I am wondering - is the paperwork to gain an age related plate of any real use to anyone out there? Or, to avoid the endless
SORN-ing, should I just write to the DVLA saying that the car was responsibly disposed of (I have no actual proof of that though - when I bought my
part finished project I just signed to take ownership of the 'donor' that had yielded some of the bits) and here's the VIN plates
and the V5 back....
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loggyboy
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 03:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
When is a car no longer a car.
Only when it has had a "Certificate of Destruction" issued.*
If you scrap a car and accidentally lose the VIN plate then presumably you can never get a certificate of destruction, so it becomes some kind of
undead monster that you can't see, touch or use, but requires SORNing forever.
*http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/regulation/65470.aspx/
i had a car that was in my grandma's garage, joy riders nicked another car, and set it alight in front of the garage with my car in it, setting
both alight. I had a few photos of my car burnt out, but number plates were melted, no pictures of vin or anyhting. grandma's neighbours son
(who i've never actually met, big mistake) offered to tow the car for me, which i agreed to as it saved me bothering with it. I still had the
V5, and no car, and couldn't find the neighbours son anywhere. the neighbour put me on to him too.
anyway, couldn't pass the V5 on to the scrap yard, so i wrote to DVLA, with V5, pictures of the car and explained what happened, and they wrote
back within a few days to say they've marked it as scrapped/destroyed for me, and keep the letter in case of any trouble.
and what about burnt out cars you find in weird places, down steep banks/valleys but have been left. something must happen to them to remove them from
DVLA
I also had this, I had kept a couple of old V5s of cars id broken and not officially scrapped, when i got bored of sorning them I just wrote them the
v5 and a letter confirming the cars had been destroyed and I no longer needed the v5. I also got a letter back a few weeks letter thanking me and
confirming they had been marked as scrapped. No additional info needed.
Mistral Motorsport
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owelly
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 05:38 PM |
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You cannot just sell a V5 with the tags. It's whats known as a "ringing kit". If you sold the remains of the car with the V5 and
tags then that would be OK. If you were to sell a part-built kit along with the V5 and tags then you'd have to make pretty damn sure that
whoever bought the kit knew the score and they knew which bits of the original car they had to keep on the kit.
There a plenty on here who will happily deal in "ringing kits" and defend them as part and parcel of building a kit car and argue that
it's no different to changing a car after it's had the IVA. As long as you know the risks, you can do whatever you like just be prepared
with answers should the BiB come knocking.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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SCAR
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 05:58 PM |
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Its easy to get confused about when a car exists and when is it correctly recorded.
I stripped an old (rotten) MK2 escort and wanted to keep the parts and v5 for a future kit build and was advised as follows.
1. You cannot legitimately sell a v5 (therefore a v5 should have no value to anyone)
2. You cannot legitimately sell vin plates (as above)
3. If you sell a car it should have a v5 and vin plates attached(you are not selling the V5) , you are then legally required to notify DVLA of
the new owner to keep it correctly recorded
4. A car exists untill it is destroyed or broken up at which point it no longer exists, you are then legally required to notify DVLA to keep it
correctly recorded. If DVLA are not notified when a car is destroyed this does not mean it still exists it just becomes incorrectly recorded as
existing.
All the above points are frequently ignored
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jps
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 08:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
You cannot just sell a V5 with the tags. It's whats known as a "ringing kit". If you sold the remains of the car with the V5 and
tags then that would be OK. If you were to sell a part-built kit along with the V5 and tags then you'd have to make pretty damn sure that
whoever bought the kit knew the score and they knew which bits of the original car they had to keep on the kit.
There a plenty on here who will happily deal in "ringing kits" and defend them as part and parcel of building a kit car and argue that
it's no different to changing a car after it's had the IVA. As long as you know the risks, you can do whatever you like just be prepared
with answers should the BiB come knocking.
Hadn't heard the term 'ringing kit' before, a quick Google turned up quite a lot of info. Thanks for that, sounds like activity to
avoid! It also certainly seems to be a big concern of classic car owners in particular.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 09:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jps
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
You cannot just sell a V5 with the tags. It's whats known as a "ringing kit". If you sold the remains of the car with the V5 and
tags then that would be OK. If you were to sell a part-built kit along with the V5 and tags then you'd have to make pretty damn sure that
whoever bought the kit knew the score and they knew which bits of the original car they had to keep on the kit.
There a plenty on here who will happily deal in "ringing kits" and defend them as part and parcel of building a kit car and argue that
it's no different to changing a car after it's had the IVA. As long as you know the risks, you can do whatever you like just be prepared
with answers should the BiB come knocking.
Hadn't heard the term 'ringing kit' before, a quick Google turned up quite a lot of info. Thanks for that, sounds like activity to
avoid! It also certainly seems to be a big concern of classic car owners in particular.
Just because a few internet warriors have decided to use the term 'ringing kit' to apply to selling of V5s doesnt make it illegal. The act
of ringing is without a doubt very illegal, and i dont doubt alot for sale on ebay could well be intended for that purpose. But simply selling a v5 is
no different to selling a gun, just because it could be illegal to use it, doesnt mean you cant sell it!
Besides, for the OP, selling ONE v5 to someone wanting to get a kit registered is not only not morally wrong, its hardly going to attract negative
attention from the boys in blue.
Mistral Motorsport
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owelly
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 09:41 PM |
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It's illegal to sell the identity of a vehicle without the vehicle. The end. But as I said, there are folks who will defend it.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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SCAR
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| posted on 13/12/12 at 10:39 PM |
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Its got nothing to do with "internet warriors" or terms like "ringing kit" that fact is that selling the identity (the v5) of
a vehicle seperate to said vehicle is illegal.
You can argue that its moraly acceptable or that lots of people do it and that no one will notice or care, its still illegal.
If you were to sell a v5 you would either need to cut out the vin plates and supply them to be welded into the new vehicle or supply the numbers so
they could be stamped into the new vehicle.
The reason its illegal is that its an attempt to reduce car theft.
Incidently its also illegal to sell a gun in the uk to anyone unless you actually hand over the complete gun and have the licensed, registered keeper
changed. Fail to comply with that and your on your way to prison so perhaps you picked a poor comparison
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James
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 10:48 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
It's illegal to sell the identity of a vehicle without the vehicle. The end. But as I said, there are folks who will defend it.
Where's the line drawn on how much of the vehicle has to be present though? For the above to be true, someone must have legally defined the
amount of car that's with the v5.
The complete car as it left the factory? Very few of my cars have 100% the same number of nuts and bolts as when they left the factory? Missing some
body parts? The front half only? The back half? A square centimetre of the bodywork around the vin plate?
A legal line must have been drawn somewhere otherwise you can't be prosecuted! 
Cheers,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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jps
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 11:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by James
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
It's illegal to sell the identity of a vehicle without the vehicle. The end. But as I said, there are folks who will defend it.
Where's the line drawn on how much of the vehicle has to be present though? For the above to be true, someone must have legally defined the
amount of car that's with the v5.
The complete car as it left the factory? Very few of my cars have 100% the same number of nuts and bolts as when they left the factory? Missing some
body parts? The front half only? The back half? A square centimetre of the bodywork around the vin plate?
A legal line must have been drawn somewhere otherwise you can't be prosecuted!
Cheers,
James
James - you've highlighted why I phrased my OP like I did!!
Accepting that some people behave criminally, at what point are you selling 'a donor', and at what point are you 'facilitating
fraud'? Like you say - if there's a precedent then it must have been tested!
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owelly
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 11:49 AM |
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If you want a definition, look at what you're allowed to do to a vehicle before you have to surrendr the v5 and follow the 'radically
altered vehixle' route.
Without getting daft, its pretty obvious what constitutes a car. A pile of bits is just that. A pile of bits.
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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jps
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 12:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by owelly
If you want a definition, look at what you're allowed to do to a vehicle before you have to surrendr the v5 and follow the 'radically
altered vehixle' route.
Without getting daft, its pretty obvious what constitutes a car. A pile of bits is just that. A pile of bits.
Take your point absolutely. But I believe it is legal to reshell a car without having to surrender the V5 and re-register that vehicle? At some point
in that process the vehicle becomes 'a pile of bits'...
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locoboy
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 01:22 PM |
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I work for a 4x4 breakers and we specialise in Land Rovers. land rovers especially defenders and series vehicles are renownd for being heavily
remanufactured with owners reinventing the same vehicle (chassis number ) time and time again. Anyone that knows land rovers knows full well that you
will not get a 30 year old daily driver land rover on its original chassis and many will be on their 3rd chassis in this time frame.
We get asked EVERY DAY this question....... "have you got any Defender/series ID mate?" people are either building up cars from piles of
spares or are stealing them and ringing them, it's so easy to do with Land Rovers and no one seems to pay the slightest bit of interest to
it.
The number of (for example) 1988 land rovers that have driven into my yard that look no older then 5 years old is unreal, the only bit that is from
the 1988 vintage is the chassis NUMBER that's it!
ATB
Locoboy
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SCAR
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| posted on 14/12/12 at 02:42 PM |
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Our school Land Rover was stolen last week, I have been told there's very little chance of recovery
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