DIY Si
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 posted on 15/3/09 at 08:15 PM |
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Single seater with a different engine
Just having a quick sit and a think as you do after dinner, and was wondering if the plans for the single seater will be easily adapted to run with a
car engine and, for example, audi transaxle? The thought I had in mind as that I have an Alfa V6 sat in garage awaiting a re-build, but the way things
are going I doubt I will be able to afford the Epona I was going to put it in.
So, and I know this may be a question best asked to Chris, do we think it would be much bother to re-design the rear end to accept a V6 and transaxle?
Or would it be easier/better to re-design the whole car to take the higher loads it will experience with the more powerful and heavier engine? Or
should I just leave it as a post dinner thought? 
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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zilspeed
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 08:43 PM |
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The main issue as I see it is that is the Audi transaxle is very heavy compared to a Hewland.
It does cost a fraction of the sum that a Hewland fetches, but it's an awfull lot of weight hung out the back of an otherwise light and nimble
single seater.
Wouldn't be quite as much of an issue in a road going mid engined sports racing car, which is relatively weighty but it's still huge
compared to a Hewland.
In a genuine racer, it would be too much of a compromise.
I would still consider using the Audi transaxle myself, but only because I believe that the engine should be longitudinal to be pukka.
It's all a load of compromises
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DIY Si
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 08:51 PM |
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It wouldn't have to be the Audi option, merely what came to mind. Whilst it would be the best option for performance, would a Hewland not be a
bit OTT for the road? And as you say, fiendishly expensive. As for weight, the V6 isn't exactly feather weight! It would add a good 150 or so
kgs to the car. But with an awesome sound track. 
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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designer
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 09:52 PM |
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If you want a car engined single seat it was done 40 years ago.
The Terrapin.
Could be a good project. I have a set of plans somewhere.
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zilspeed
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 10:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
It wouldn't have to be the Audi option, merely what came to mind. Whilst it would be the best option for performance, would a Hewland not be a
bit OTT for the road? And as you say, fiendishly expensive. As for weight, the V6 isn't exactly feather weight! It would add a good 150 or so
kgs to the car. But with an awesome sound track.
My misunderstanding.
I thought you wanted longitudinal - like the VAG B5 platform uses.
That's a rare case of a longitudinal front wheel drive package.
I have had discussions with several people on the whole issue of using FWD transverse packages for a mid engined car. Much as it does work, there are
definitely issues with weight distribution.
How much of the drivetrain load is over the front wheels ? Not a lot really. It's quite strongly biased towards rear weight distribution.
With the VAG B5 gearbox placing the engine longitudinally, this issue is partly addressed.
Finally, the only racing car I ever remember having a transverse engine was the Van Diemen formula first. This wasn't because it was better. It
was because it used production parts and avoided the cost of a Hewland.
The only other mainstream longitudinal alternatives are the Renault UN1 and Subaru FWD gearboxes, but the Subaru packaging is very odd with loads of
gearbox hanging out behind the driveshafts and the Renault is a bit of a oddball box to find.
The B5 box has been made in droves from 1995 up the current day.
You takes your choice etc.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 10:11 PM |
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Only thing is, it's not really the look I'm after. Whilst handling is obviously very important, the thinking was aimed at a road car, and
making it look more like the old Le Mans cars with their longitudinal V engines. And I think I've had enough of playing with the A series for
now, having gotten a race engined mini in the garage. I'd rather something a bit more up to date.
ZIl, you were right the first time round, I am after an inline set up.
Essentially this:
[img]http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-16033067.jpg?size=67&uid={fd8734bc-e17e-4cf5-b9a7-edc5d2703ec1}[/img]
[Edited on 15/3/09 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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designer
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 10:15 PM |
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Build a Terrapin and plonk a modern transverse unit in the back.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 10:27 PM |
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Arrgh, damn pic links.
Right, just think of an old(er) F1 type car, with a big inline engine and a hewland type transaxle hanging out the back.
IE like this
 #
[Edited on 15/3/09 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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wrigglypig
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 10:28 PM |
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Has anyone got a link to the plans for a terrapin??
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Scoobythedog
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| posted on 15/3/09 at 11:16 PM |
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wriggly, seems a fair bit of info here terrapin
Looks great from the front, but the back may be trouble to get through the IVA.
Scooby
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minitici
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 09:04 AM |
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A cheaper alternative to the Hewland box could be the Renault NG3 transaxle (as fitted to 2 Litre Fuego and Espace models).
This unit is often used in Lotus Europa conversions
Banks-Europa
There is also the Renault UN1 transaxle favoured by the GT40 brigade.
Just so happens, I have two NG3 transaxles in the shed......
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Triton
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 09:27 AM |
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Mini bloke,
Do you do a reverse doodah for your chain driven diff?
Mark
My Daughter has taken over production of the damn fine Triton race seats and her contact email is emmatrs@live.co.uk.
www.tritonraceseats.com
www.hairyhedgehog.com
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minitici
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 01:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Triton
Mini bloke,
Do you do a reverse doodah for your chain driven diff?
Mark
Hi Mark, Yes! I have sent U2U
Doug.
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chrisg
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 04:04 PM |
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I've not gone into details regarding a car engine fitment, I'm a bit busy! 
Because I've been asked, I checked the 4 cylinder Audi engine and 016 transaxle. Physically they fit in the chassis without serious
modification - that's all I know.
Looking at the space and knowing that the 6 cylinder engine is longer than the 4, it might fit but I can't say for certain until....
a. I get a minute to scratch my ars*
and
b. I get to measure up the engine.
If anyone has drawings or 3d models of the engine (in any format) that would be lovely. I have made a simple "block" model of the
transaxle already.
I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
Chris
BTW Terrapin books (High Speed, Low Cost) are available
Here
I think Alan Staniforth is still selling plans too........
[Edited on 16/3/09 by chrisg]
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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Rod Ends
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 posted on 16/3/09 at 04:58 PM |
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Honda RA272 - transverse V12
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zilspeed
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 05:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by minitici
A cheaper alternative to the Hewland box could be the Renault NG3 transaxle (as fitted to 2 Litre Fuego and Espace models).
This unit is often used in Lotus Europa conversions
Banks-Europa
There is also the Renault UN1 transaxle favoured by the GT40 brigade.
Just so happens, I have two NG3 transaxles in the shed......
Which car used this transaxle Doug ?
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minitici
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 07:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zilspeed
quote:
Originally posted by minitici
A cheaper alternative to the Hewland box could be the Renault NG3 transaxle (as fitted to 2 Litre Fuego and Espace models).
Just so happens, I have two NG3 transaxles in the shed......
Which car used this transaxle Doug ?
As above or the one in the picture?
The picture is of my Royale RP29 before I whipped out the Espace engine & gearbox.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 16/3/09 at 08:24 PM |
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Chris, if the Audi 4 pot fits, then my idea might well work, as it's a V6, not a straight 6, although I reckon it's about the same length
as a 4 pot. Do you reckon it might fit width wise?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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chrisg
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| posted on 17/3/09 at 01:44 PM |
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The top chassis rails are 590mm apart in the engine bay - now we need someone to measure an Audi engine!
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 17/3/09 at 06:14 PM |
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Well, the Alfa engine I have is 59 cm at it's widest across the cam covers, but only 55cm at the heads. And it's roughly 70 cm tall. So it
might fit. Just.
Chris, how long is the engine bay going to be? The Alfa lump is 56 cm from the front pulley to the bellhousing mounting face. MMmm, looks like my
vague plan may work after all.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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chrisg
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| posted on 20/3/09 at 06:18 PM |
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Bulkhead to the next chassis frame.......
570mm!
So you've got a full 10mm to play with!
Actually there's probably some leeway in recessing the bulkhead and modifing the chassis frame too. In the worse case you could extend the
engine bay and wheelbase a bit, the standard size engine cover wouldn't fit - not a problem if you're making your own.
Height wise the engine bay is about 560mm, so you'd have to maybe look at a sump chop (or a dry sump kit) and a power bulge in the engine
cover.
Cheers
Chris
Note to all: I really don't know when to leave well alone. I tried to get clever with the mods, then when they gave me a lifeline to see the
error of my ways, I tried to incite more trouble via u2u. So now I'm banned, never to return again. They should have done it years ago!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 20/3/09 at 07:36 PM |
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10mm is loads! Especially if I can incorporate the gearbox adapter plate into the chassis frame. Height wise, that was IIRC with the standard sump and
inlet gear, which is set up for FWD, so it'd need modifying anyway. It'll be tight, but I reckon I can get away with it.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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Terrapin_racing
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| posted on 7/10/12 at 11:32 AM |
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Yep, build a terrapin - you know you want to 
last of the books just gone on ebay - search on 'high speed low cost'
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big_wasa
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| posted on 7/10/12 at 11:46 AM |
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Can you get the plans ?
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Terrapin_racing
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| posted on 7/10/12 at 12:34 PM |
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Why not build a Terrapin and put the v6 in the back
[Edited on 7/10/12 by Terrapin_racing]
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