As Austen has said, I put this on as a warning for the Locost community, to make sure it doesn't happen to anyone else, as these joints are
probably on most of your cars, if your using an aftermarket joint.
For all you experts that know everything and their cars are perfect, you don't need to bother reading this thread, and your speculation on why
it failed aren't needed, I know why it failed.
Photo Archive
Building: Finished Locost, now fitting type 9 box
posted on 17/9/14 at 09:03 PM
I have to say, having used these kinds of joints on two vehicles, that in my experience the bolt has to line up with the groove in the shaft and
everything has to be prety close to perfectly in line for the bolt to fit through before tightening. If it dont you cannot assemble the joint and
theres something wrong. If the bolt is too slack that should get the alarm bells ringing. Please dont bad mouth those who may be trying to give valid
advice.
quote:Originally posted by myke pocock
I have to say, having used these kinds of joints on two vehicles, that in my experience the bolt has to line up with the groove in the shaft and
everything has to be prety close to perfectly in line for the bolt to fit through before tightening. If it dont you cannot assemble the joint and
theres something wrong. If the bolt is too slack that should get the alarm bells ringing. Please dont bad mouth those who may be trying to give valid
advice.
I'm not bad mouthing anyone, I'm just trying to stop this happening to anyone else!!!
For you information the bolt was tight, and didn't line up with the groove as the hole was machined in the wrong place (check the original
post), it's been spanner checked after every race, and checked and passed by Scrutineering at 7 race events this year. How many times do you
check all the bolts on your car??
Well done Steve for pointing this out. Nice to see apart from one arrogant arsehole, most are pleased for the heads up.
While I agree that the clamping force is what holds everything together, the groove and shank is what stops it from pulling apart, should the clamping
force come slightly less than needed.
Photo Archive
Building: MNR GM3 RGB racer - 08 ZX10 powered class F
posted on 17/9/14 at 09:41 PM
If I were you ste i'd delete this thread and let all the sanctimonious pricks out there take their chances. The race cars are checked more in a
weekend than most road cars are 5 years so their perfect build should save them for the first few years....
[Edited on 17/9/14 by MK9R]
[Edited on 17/9/14 by MK9R]
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
Photo Archive
Building: westfields, strikers you name it
posted on 18/9/14 at 12:36 AM
I find it incredible that a post aimed at bringing a wider awareness of a potentially serious issue that could have such serious consequences
can't be taken for exactly what it is. Steve, having suffered a really nasty accident as a result of component failure saw fit to to try a raise
awareness in an attempt to save some other unfortunate from the same or possibly worse, I am certain that his intention was never to raise a debate on
the quality or lack of, of the component in question.
I however will - as a manufacturer it is my responsibility to try and provide my drivers and customers with equipment of a suitable quality and that
is fit for purpose. We have tried a number of these joints from different suppliers and they have all Been utter garbage, working loose, uj's
disintegrating , failing to clamp and at very least leading to large amounts of slack in the steering action. I think after all the years building and
racing these cars we are well aware of how to assemble a steering joint.
The simple fact is at £26 a joint and bearing in mind there is shipping and a profit being made on that, what quality do you expect to get, the
examples we have seen were so badly formed that they wouldn't clamp and needed slots widening, had splines so badly formed they slipped around
the shaft splines and had bolt holes machined in completely random positions. That is not to mention that they are made of some reconstituted steel
that is both soft and brittle.
Trust me if we could use a joint at this price we would as it is hard enough to make a margin on a car but they simply are not up to standard and so
we had to spend a shed load of money designing, machining and stocking something that is.
We have always maintained that if a component can take the kicking we give it racing then generally it is good enough for our trackday and road going
customers and to suggest that experienced racers, designers and builders like Austen and Steve don't understand the issue is just plain
ridiculous and entirely unhelpful.
So could we all just get back to the initial point - check them and if you are in any doubt change them - they don't have to be ours there are
plenty of other quality items out there, you just won't get them for sub £30
I'm sorry if my post deamed me to be a santamoniouse prick also I certainly don't believe neither my car or myself perfect, far from it. I
did try to cover myself by saying I was trying not to be controversial, it's not easy to get across what your trying to say with the written
word compared to face to face conversation.
It was right to give the heads up, however if scrutineers are checking this particular bolt/joint due to recent failures in other formulae then surely
part of that check should be that it aligns with and passes through the groove otherwise why bother checking? The bolt didn't line up with the
groove in this case, unfortunate that this wasn't spotted during assembly and anyone else with a similar joint would be well advised to check
there's as the original post suggests.
I noticed at Thoresby on Sunday that there was a shead-load of slack in my UJ (same type) after just a couple of trackdays, it was also noted by the
scrutineer who seemed to already be wary of the quality of them.
And no, my bolt hasn't bottomed out causing the slackness because I'm not a cretin and I'm sure the other people who have had issues
with these UJ's aren't either.
I've already contacted Andy to sort out getting an AB Performance replacement, glad I have seen this thread.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
Steve - I thank you for bringing it to the attention of the wider audience.
Some of these replies are just shocking imo, and I agree with Austen… with the replies you've had - just delete the thread and let it happen to
someone else.
Seen the video that's a hard hit glad your ok. I'll be checking mine for sure and thanks for the heads up on this even if some people
don't appreciate it, best of luck Steve
Quality of the joint and selection of bolts aside, I think the real lesson here is that it’s better to have a column that does not put any pulling
force on the joints when the wheel is pulled back.
Many columns have a circlip at the bottom for this very reason and some joints are designed to slide apart in a crash or are just rubber disks which
are only meant to flex. I once had a mk1 fiesta steering column joint pop out whilst driving along due to a plastic spacer being missing under the
steering wheel which, fortunately it braked in a straight line.
If you can pull the column back if the joints are disconnect I’d recommend you redesign it so it won’t
Photo Archive
Building: Magenta LSR Ver 2.2.3 AKA Tupperware Turd
posted on 19/9/14 at 08:54 AM
See my post on the first page and to concurr with BT:
It's entirely possible that these 'dodgy' joints are not faulty. Perhaps they are supposed to be like that. On my splined sections,
there is no notch or groove machined in for the bolt to locate through. It's up to the person who fits the joint to check it's suitable.
I also agree that the 'heads-up' is a very good idea even if it's just to make sure folks check they have the right joints fitted.
Photo Archive
Building: MNR GM3 RGB racer - 08 ZX10 powered class F
posted on 19/9/14 at 09:02 AM
I have the same joints bought from the same place and my bolt has to go through a notch due to its position. So either mine or steves is faulty, take
you chances....
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
Hope my post didn't come across as sanctimonious. It certainly wasn't intended that way.
Just suggesting that as in most cases there are several contributing factors to this failure.
In its intended / original application (i.e. Escort group 4) the steering column has a large roll pin, washer and plastic bush on the engine side of
the bulkhead to stop you from being able to pull up on the column. This means the joint is effectively trapped between the column and the steering
rack and even if the pinch bolt was to fall out the joint could not come off. This is thought to be a fail safe design.
Another contributing factor could be that the material used was too soft meaning that the splines would fret and wear too quickly.
quote:Originally posted by yellowcab
Steve - I thank you for bringing it to the attention of the wider audience.
Some of these replies are just shocking imo, and I agree with Austen… with the replies you've had - just delete the thread and let it happen to
someone else.
Keyboard warriors.
I'm with Yellowcab on the pitiful responses in this thread. Every now and again it crops up and its the same old posters talking the same old
shite. Puts me off posting, I'm sure it does others. As for BT sometimes its not about the content, (debatable) though the way its delivered.
Though tbh its more about his post count. Perhaps Chris can have sort a special section for the bellends, where they can be knobs together. Or maybe
they might do us all a favour, do the right thing and die by the sword.
Back to the topic. Thanks for posting up, one of my worst fears, steering failure. I'm currently looking at the steering on my build project
and will avoid dodgy parts and scrutinise the components before fitting.
Thanks again.
Girl walks into a bar and asks for a double entendre, so the barman gave her one
Guys Guys Guys, this an open forum, if you don't like what someone says, either ignore it or counter it with fact.
This is aimed at both sides, im not defending BTs manner of posting, or if he is or is not correct.
There's no point jumping up and down about how you dislike someone's comments, opinion or how they are delivered, that's just how
some people are, especially hidden behind a keyboard.
His silence seems to be enough to show he has no backing in his argument, so use your own noggin to come a conclusion on what the facts are.
When I posted this, I wasn't asking or looking for advice.
I think 33 years in Engineering, 20 spent in automotive, 2 rally cars and 2 Kitcar/race cars built qualifies me for most things.
I didn't post all the facts, as I didn't feel the need to or want to discuss them, as you can imagine the crash was a little traumatic.
The post was just an awareness for the Locost community of the risks in using cheap steering UJs, I'd hate for this to happen to someone
else.
You can choose to accept the advice or reject it. This post will self destruct in 30minutes.
Thanks to everyone for their best wishes, and to everyone else who preferred to pick holes.....Get a life!!
quote:
Guys Guys Guys, this an open forum, if you don't like what someone says, either ignore it or counter it with fact.
This is aimed at both sides, im not defending BTs manner of posting, or if he is or is not correct.
There's no point jumping up and down about how you dislike someone's comments, opinion or how they are delivered, that's just how
some people are, especially hidden behind a keyboard.
His silence seems to be enough to show he has no backing in his argument, so use your own noggin to come a conclusion on what the facts are.
+1 It seemed to me that BT was trying to help, albeit in a fairly robust mannner, and from the point of view of what the original post was about i.e
helping people avoid making the same mistake, I think his input was valuable.
It seems people are getting upset as to whether the position of the bolt is correct to require a groove, or not, both bolt locations are correct, but
for different applications, some installations have a groove, some don't, so both components are equally correct from that angle.
What is incorrect is to be supplied or fit a joint with an outset bolt to a shaft with a groove requiring an inset bolt, vice versa just won't
fit, so, to say one component is crap, shite etc. from the bolt location alone is incorrect, from a material, machining quality aspect they may well
be a pile of crap.
I absolutely agree with the heads up, and that folk should check their application, and also other methods of longitudinal column location, as I said
in my early post.
So if that makes me fall into any of the derogatory categories referred to, so be it, but I'm sure the many people I've helped, advised
worked with/for, given and loaned parts, tools and time to, would disagree.
quote:Originally posted by amalyos
When I posted this, I wasn't asking or looking for advice.
I think 33 years in Engineering, 20 spent in automotive, 2 rally cars and 2 Kitcar/race cars built qualifies me for most things.
I didn't post all the facts, as I didn't feel the need to or want to discuss them, as you can imagine the crash was a little traumatic.
The post was just an awareness for the Locost community of the risks in using cheap steering UJs, I'd hate for this to happen to someone
else.
You can choose to accept the advice or reject it. This post will self destruct in 30minutes.
Thanks to everyone for their best wishes, and to everyone else who preferred to pick holes.....Get a life!!
There's no need to delete, there is some constructive information in here worth keeping, and its easy enough to read past the arguments.
Whilst your intent may have been to make people aware, but on an open public forum you have to accept that other people will add their own points of
view, right or wrong, wanted or not.
quote:Originally posted by Andy B
I find it incredible that a post aimed at bringing a wider awareness of a potentially serious issue that could have such serious consequences
can't be taken for exactly what it is
I find it incredible that you and others can't understand what BT is saying; it should be crystal clear to anyone with the most basic
engineering background.
The bolt and the groove in the splines are present for location only. Even without this feature (and plenty of older cars don't have this),
then provided there is sufficient joint engagement and that the bolt is supplying sufficient clamping force, it would be impossible to pull apart the
splined joint by hand.
The reason that the joint separated boils down to one of two things:
1) The joint was incorrectly assembled with insufficient engagement of the spline into the UJ.
2) The pinch bolt was not providing adequate clamping force, either due to under tightening, becoming thread bound due to the plain shank being too
long for the application, or (less likely) it was overtightened and stretched well past the yeild point.
If the bolt had been located in the groove then it may well have prevented the joint completely separating, but the loose fitting joint would have
resulted in the splines being stripped off at some point and the same accident occurring.
