Tralfaz
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| posted on 13/9/04 at 11:17 PM |
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Supercharged R1
Hello All,
For a little while I have been toying with the possibility of Supercharging the R1 motor. In my case it is a USA spec 2003 unit. I have had a look at
the Dynomite site. Their setup looks quite nice, but would be well out of my price range. I have been thinking of using an Eaton M45 out of a
'New" Mini Cooper. I went ahead and picked up a lightly used one (From a Works upgrade) to see if I could fit it under the Bonnet. It
will. I am curious if anyone out there has contemplated this or might have any comments or thoughts.
Regards,
Brian
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ChrisBradley04
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| posted on 14/9/04 at 04:19 AM |
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Sounds really interesting, especially with all the unused superchargers on eBay. I guess the critical factor is how many PSI of boost they supply as
to what engine mods will be required. Any idea?
Regards
Chris
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kingr
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| posted on 14/9/04 at 10:12 AM |
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Tralfaz - is your car on the road? If not, I'd seriously recommend waiting till it is before you start slapping superchargers on the side.
It's very easy to get "numbers greedy" while you're building without realising that what you've got without a
supercharger could well be more than you really need or want on the road. Unless you're going to be heading into 100Mph+ territory on a regular
basis, the gains are unlikely to justify the effort.
Kingr
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phil_far
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| posted on 14/9/04 at 02:55 PM |
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The most critical factor is the PSI (how much boost). Given the high boost pressures that superchargers are renowned for and the high compression
ratios that bike engines have; really and truly the two do not match together. However because bike engines are designed to breath in in a rev range
of 10,000+, and taking into consideration the factor of camshaft overlap, the effective compression ratio would be much less than the 11.0+ declered.
As for turbos if you tend to keep the stock compression and pistons it is not advisable to go beyond 5 -6psi (less than 0.5bar) which is nothing for a
supercharger!! On the other hand it would still look interesting given the fact that it will increase the torque at pratcically 0rpm something that is
missing on a bike engined. I have covered this subject in a lot of detail since I am tempted to supercharge/turbocharge my Fireblade as well.
There are other factors to be considered such as flow rate (cfm), drive, lubrication etcc.
What are the costs of the supercharger you have mentioned?
Philip
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ChrisBradley04
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| posted on 14/9/04 at 07:43 PM |
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Phil,
Brand new Eaton superchargers from Mini's that are being upgraded to Works spec are regularly going for just over 200 quid on eBay. They seem to
come on in batches and look like they are being sold by people in the motor trade.
Almost bought one myself the other day but then realised I don't really know what I am doing and suspect I could do some real damage That
said, someone has to do it as BEC forced induction really can't get more 'locost' than this.
Regards
Chris
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 14/9/04 at 07:48 PM |
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Thanks for the comments.
First off,let me say this is just something I am toying with ,by no means starting tomorrow.
Kingr- No, the car is not running yet, I picked up the Supercharger mostly to see if it was possible, and if so, what considerations I should make for
the 'Possible' addition once the car is on the road for a bit. My chassis is Caterham sized, so there is not a massive amount of room
under the Bonnet.
As for the power issue, the addition of the Supercharger would not be to add massive amounts of power, but maybe 'Tweak' it a bit better
for my needs. Specifically, increase low end power and Torque while changing the upper band only a bit.
Chris - The specifics for an M45 can be found here.
http://www.filler-up.com/sscor/m45_specifications.htm
Modifications would include the addition of a drive pulley and probably a custom (Thick) head gasket to lower the compression ratio a tad. A power
commander would be a necessity
Also a big old intercooler!!
I don't plan on boosting very high at all, maybe 6 lbs?
Phil - The unit I picked up was about $300 US. Units sell on Ebay UK for about 150 pounds regularly.
I will be doing some calculations in the near future, if there is any interest, let me know and I will forward it.
Regards,
Brian
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phil_far
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 10:27 AM |
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What ever additional ppwer you increase will be down to Torque since you will not be changing the revs. And teh magic formula of pwer is TxRevs!
It all looks very interesting this idea of supercharging. The prices look really good. I am more than willing to support you on this idea.
We can start by doing soem calculations on what pwer figures/compression ratios and modifictaiosn we are looking at together with costs involved. I
think if we keep a low 5psi but good cir cooling to keep the air temperature down we can get away with stock compression/pistons. We shoudl be able to
squeeze around 40bhp more. It has been done with nutrious oxide (35bhp no change to the internal) and turbocharging (6psi - 40bhp) no chnge either.
Philip
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 11:29 AM |
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Hi Phil,
I did some rough calculations last night based on formulas in the Corky Bell book "Supercharged"
I will want to run them again before posting anything, but it looks like that 40% increase would be attainable with 5 lbs of boost and an 80%
efficient intercooler system.
Regards,
Brian
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Deckman001
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 12:06 PM |
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Any of you 'brits' want a charger, your topic sounds very interesting but way too early in my build to consider seriously, i only say
'brits' as its located on this side of the pond £50 at the moment !!!
Jason
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phil_far
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 03:24 PM |
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Brian,
My calculatiosn were also based on teh same book. Excellent stuff and really practical too.
Where your calculations based on stock compression?
Is your engine fuel injected since mine is carb fed and I might have an issue with that!
Philip
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 05:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian,
My calculatiosn were also based on teh same book. Excellent stuff and really practical too.
Where your calculations based on stock compression?
Is your engine fuel injected since mine is carb fed and I might have an issue with that!
Phil,
I didn't have enough information to speculate what dropping the CR would do to an unboosted motor, but I did use a conservative horsepower value
in my calcs.
My motor is Fuel injected.
Dropping the CR down to 10.0 or so might increase gasket thickness by .03 inches (.75mm), seems like a lot...
Brian
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sean951
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 06:23 PM |
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this is a very interesting thread. i would be curious if anyone gets this running on there r1 or any bike engine for that matter. i think you would
have to go with an injected motor, to keep it drivable at rpm levels below 4000. i read on a website where someone turboed an older r1 and they ended
up switching the fuel delivery system to the newer injected bikes system to get it running correctly. i think they made 190rwhp at 5 or 6 psi.
ill try to find the site. I think a company called TTS makes a supercharger for the hayabusa but it wasnt the twin screw type.
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 07:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sean951
this is a very interesting thread. i would be curious if anyone gets this running on there r1 or any bike engine for that matter. i think you would
have to go with an injected motor, to keep it drivable at rpm levels below 4000. i read on a website where someone turboed an older r1 and they ended
up switching the fuel delivery system to the newer injected bikes system to get it running correctly. i think they made 190rwhp at 5 or 6 psi.
ill try to find the site. I think a company called TTS makes a supercharger for the hayabusa but it wasnt the twin screw type.
Sean,
I think you mean...
http://www.sandrpro.com/yamaha%20r1%20turbo.htm
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sean951
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| posted on 15/9/04 at 09:17 PM |
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thats it, looks like they where running a lot more boost than i thought. pretty impressive though for a 1 liter 4 cylinder on pump gas, but then again
bmw F1 engines where making 1400hp from 1 liter 4 cylinders in the 80's
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tigris
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| posted on 16/9/04 at 02:32 PM |
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tuning
I was wondering how much you have looked into tuning, I'm doing a 03 r1 motor and I'll be running a gt 25 or 28 turbo. Have you looked
into injectors/management? Superchargers also require alot more work to fit. I'm located outside of Philadelphia, I'd like to check out
your project as you make progress
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ERP
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| posted on 16/9/04 at 06:56 PM |
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Don't want to sound negative on this, but isn't there going to be an issue with the mechanical drive on an engine that has a 12000 rpm
redline?
I remember reading one of the mustang magazines a few years ago, they were trying to reach 200mph in a mustang, using a belt driven supercharger plus
who knows whatelse, I think they needed to reach only 8000rpm to make 200 and they went through 3 belts to do it.
Superchargers are tantalising on a bike engine because unlike turbos they increase the torque accross the entire rev range, but I'd have
thought the mechanical coupling would be prohibitive on such a high revving engine?
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tigris
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| posted on 16/9/04 at 07:25 PM |
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you can adjust the blower speed with a pulley, easy enough to get one custom made
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 12:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tigris
I was wondering how much you have looked into tuning, I'm doing a 03 r1 motor and I'll be running a gt 25 or 28 turbo. Have you looked
into injectors/management? Superchargers also require alot more work to fit. I'm located outside of Philadelphia, I'd like to check out
your project as you make progress
Tigris,
I have not looked into it too much, but this comment was posted on the Yahoo BEC board regarding the Dynomite Supercharger Kit.
......I spoke to the guy's from dynomite and there's some good news. They're
still running the standard airbox, map sensor and injectors. They simply
use a Power commander to richen things up a little. At 8 psi boost (IIRC)
they said the injectors were at a 60% duty cycle. So good, good news we can
keep most of the stock inlet.....
ERP,
As stated already, pulleys can solve that problem, further the M45 can run at 14,000 RPM'S if necessary.
Regards,
Brian
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phil_far
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 06:22 AM |
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Agreed, there should not be any issues with pulleys. Even blow through systems should work fine although I agree that drivability would be slightly
compromised due to the fixed jet/needle size at low speeds.
Brian, what sort of air cooling are you planning? Air/Air intercoolers do not seem to be that effective do they?
Philip
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 10:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian, what sort of air cooling are you planning? Air/Air intercoolers do not seem to be that effective do they?
Phil,
I will probably just stick with Air to Air. A well designed system should provide 85% efficiency.Up to 90 is possible, but maybe not in a Seven,
unless I use the intercooler as an Aeroscreen.... hmm....
Brian
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phil_far
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 12:54 PM |
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Brian,
Visit this ste: http://www.best-guess.co.uk/westfield_turboblade/
You will see what a good turbocharged blow through bike engien is really like let aloen a fuel injected on .
However it also shows you how ineffectiev air/air cooling in a seven is, and how much more affecient water injection is
Great car, excellent bloke and loads of ideas.
Philip
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 07:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phil_far
Brian,
Visit this ste: http://www.best-guess.co.uk/westfield_turboblade/
You will see what a good turbocharged blow through bike engien is really like let aloen a fuel injected on .
However it also shows you how ineffectiev air/air cooling in a seven is, and how much more affecient water injection is
Great car, excellent bloke and loads of ideas.
Thanks Phil,
Had not seen that one. Water injection might be a good idea.
Freddy Kumchick (The Swiss Caterham Importer) built a 300hp Turbocharged Seven 10-15 years ago. He had the intercooler mounted in front of the engine
(Up high) and had cooling ducts cut into the nose and acheived fair success.
I also was toying with the idea of mounting it 'Flat' a bit above flush with the bottom chassis railsand adding a scoop that would hang an
inch below the frame???
Regards,
Brian
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alister667
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 10:09 PM |
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I have to admit I am following this thread with great interest.
If any of you folks do go ahead and fit a supercharger let us all know how you get on and document how you did it please?
The thought of an extra 40bhp for 2-300quid has me foaming at the pedal!
All the best
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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tigris
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 01:48 PM |
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intercooler
Isn't the supercharger a roots type? most of those have a integral heat exchanger, which forces you to go air/water. I'm running an
air/air flat mounted between the front end
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Tralfaz
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| posted on 19/9/04 at 06:06 PM |
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Alister,
Will do, though your comment on 2-300 quid is a bit optimistic...
Tigris,
The M45 is indeed a Roots type, but there is no built in heat exchanger.
Brian
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