locoboy
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 11:50 AM |
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motor bike to front wheel drive
Hi folks,
a mate of mine has bought a single seater called a free spirit made originaly by a company called Hudson (http://www.spiritowners.f9.co.uk/ )
and is endevouring to put a Yamaha V-max engine in it.
Saw it last night and the engine is in, not mounted but it is in all the same. The issue we have is that we need to get drive from the universal joint
on the off side of the engine to the renault 5 diff which is situated centrally to provide the drive to the 2 front hubs via the existing shafts.
The car used to run a renault 5 engine and g/box / diff and uprights.
We have thought about changing the diff for something more modern with unequal length shafts so it can be off set to the off side of the car in line
with the output shaft but that would mean new shafts, new hubs and the suspension wishbones would not fit then!
in addition to this the output from the max motor rotates the wrong way!
I am sure Rorty or such engineery type folks will have a solution to the problem!
Any possible solution will be more than gratefully accepted!
dont know why he didnt just strap a turbo to the renault angine and be done with it! would be far less hassle.
ATB
Locoboy
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JoelP
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 12:29 PM |
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upping the boost would certainly be easier!
maybe use 2 diffs, on in between the front wheels and pointing back, and another linked straight to it, with the innards welded up, with one drive
shaft turned via a cog and chain from the engine? this would solve the offset as well as it would be to one side, and you could choose the diff
ratio(s) as well. not a very good explaination i know!
mr gusterson knows about that idea, i got it from a link he posted...
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Simon
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 12:53 PM |
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Another solution might be to use shaft drive to the rear wheel!!
ATB
Simon
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locoboy
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 01:10 PM |
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Joel,
You are right about your description! sounds like you have some good ideas but i cant understand what u mean,
what ever we decide to do will need to be well designed as it will have 150 bhp ragging through it at 8000 rpm and a V-boost system that kicks in
about 4000 giving a rapid increase in grunt 
ATB
Locoboy
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ned
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 01:11 PM |
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put a belt drive on it, the belt in the shape of an 8 to change the direction of the drive, this will also solve the offset problem!
either that or 2 big cogs.
might loose some power thorugh this type of transmission though...
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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locoboy
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 01:50 PM |
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Simon,
Not enough room to make it RWD unfortunately.
Ned,
The figure of 8 would rub on its self where it crosses over surely? and 2 big cogs? these would need to be housed in something with adequate
lubrication and protection from the environment, and ideally provide a 1:1 ratio right?
ATB
Locoboy
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ned
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 02:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by colmaccoll
Ned,
The figure of 8 would rub on its self where it crosses over surely? and 2 big cogs? these would need to be housed in something with adequate
lubrication and protection from the environment, and ideally provide a 1:1 ratio right?
Colin,
May I quote you on:
quote:
Any possible solution will be more than gratefully accepted!
Didn't say how to implement my stupendous plan!
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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locoboy
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 02:22 PM |
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fair point Ned! amyone know of any bits of kit that are readily available to perform any parts of this task and will be able to take the power from
this type of engine?
any fully thought out and fully engineered ideas will be appreciated!
ATB
Locoboy
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JoelP
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 02:47 PM |
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damn damn damn damn damn just spent 10 mins doing a daft sketch with |\/_-- sort of stuff and then lost it by going back a page
damndamndamndamndamn.
i'll try a smaller one:
-----O------- this is the diff to the wheels
. . . | . .. .. . . .this is a very short prop
. . --O---| . . . this is another diff welded up so the drive
. . . . . .| . . . . .shafts spin together. a chain goes from one
. . . .----| . . . . side to the engine. simple.
the dots just make it space right...
the diffs have to be from two cars that spin in opposite directions to correct the drive direction.
voila!
[Edited on 7/10/03 by JoelP]
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locoboy
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 02:57 PM |
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Maybe i am miss interpreting your diagram .... the engine has a shaft output with UJ attached already, not a crankshaft with the sproket on as per
blade/ninja/busa etc , or am i just being T'ick?
ATB
Locoboy
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ned
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 03:18 PM |
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Some honda engines spin the wrong way, so difs might be useful?
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 04:07 PM |
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Hi
I see my name got mentioned, but I cant remember what I may have linked or suggested then!
I did have a few thoughts a while back on how to drive a RWD car with a bike engine mounted over the live axle, so perhaps it came out that?
I have two suggestions, one of which, the first one, was from Rorty.
He said that trike people use a diff that they cut open the case of, so that they can replace the crown wheel with a big sproket. The sprocket then
goes to the chain to the bike engine. You have to use sealed bearings and run the diff dry, but Rorty recons they last OK with occasional lube. This
may be adapted for FWD...?
In this situation, id look at using a sierra diff, mounted with its flange pointing forwards, as nomal, and fit a sprocket to the flange. If that
gives the right position and direction to the engine drive sprocket, great!
What you dont want to do it to try and bodge things by driving the diff the wrong was as Im told this upsets the way the gears mesh (bevelled) and it
sends the diff to an early grave and makes it noisy.
Id use some kinda 'layshaft' to transfer the drive and direction from the engine sprocket to the diff sprocket. Perhaps you need two if
you need to reverse direction........
Its not a simple solution, but if you use the right drive components I recon it would work.
atb
steve
[Edited on 7/10/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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JoelP
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 04:12 PM |
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quite right col, i assumed it was a chain drive. oops.
surely its quite easy to use a bent propshaft, with CVs instead of universals to keep it working?
steve - the link was in the trike section on using a chain drive engine to turn a prop shaft without turning the engine round. thought it was u but
mebbe not!
where is Rorty these days? hes not posted since 19/09...
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steve m
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 04:55 PM |
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Another sugestion,
put a renault 5 engine back in
with a turbo ??
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MattWatson
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 05:14 PM |
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Flip the differential.
This will cause the shaft drive to turn the ouput in the oposite direction. It is preformed all the time on off-road applications, and in turning a
Rear engined transmission into a mid-engined transmission.
Matt Watson
--------------------------------
VW 1.6L SOHC Turbo Mid engined car
http://members.shaw.ca/wavindustries/
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JoelP
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 05:30 PM |
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i was thinking the diff would leak thru the breather hole, i supose you just weld it up and drill another.
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 7/10/03 at 05:47 PM |
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flipping the box (vw beetle) is what hewland do for their single seater jobbies also done on strange rovers
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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locoboy
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| posted on 8/10/03 at 08:21 AM |
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Thanks for all the support and ideas,
After a few Murphy's and some head scratching last night i came up with the same sort of idea,
to use the existing UJ on the bike output, run it off at an angle to the centre of the car, find/buy/make a suitable flange for the other end that
will allow it to be bolted to a sierra diff, this can still be the right way up and produce the correct rotation to drive the car.
I will then need to either have the end of the renault driveshafts (cv joint at each end) modified to fit the sierra diff (anyone know if this
procedure can be done?)
or get sierra shafts and have then cut and the outer end modded to fit the renault hub.
The rear shafts on the sierras have 2 cv joints right?
do they allow the magnitude of movement to allow them to be used as shafts with steering hubs on the end?
If so voila, 460bhp/tonne!
anyone see any flaws? i have a hangover today so there may well be a few lurking in there somewhere
ATB
Locoboy
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JoelP
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| posted on 8/10/03 at 10:01 AM |
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as one possibility, use the front drive shafts off a 4x4 sierra. actually that isnt necessary, just cut rear drive shafts in two and weld the other
end off the renault drive shafted to them, that way both ends will be correct and original and steering wont be a problem. GET THE WELDING DONE
PROFESSIONALLY ON THE DRIVE SHAFTS THOUGH, and balanced as well.
just an idea anyway!
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locoboy
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| posted on 8/10/03 at 10:08 AM |
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didnt realise it was a possibility to have them cut and shut, anyone got any names of reputable engineering companies that will undertake the work?
ATB
Locoboy
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 8/10/03 at 03:40 PM |
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Rorty's site describes whats involved
basically, you get a sleeve machined up of approx 5mm steel, slip it over the joint, and weld thro drilled holes in the sleeve to the shaft.
I had one of mine modded by a dowel / hole / weleded bevelled edge method. Altho it can be driven around my front garden, im gonna get it done
Rorty's way.
I have a local eng / machining co that im asking to do the work in a week or two.
Viper has kindly agreed to help with the welding bit if needed.
Luego sell modded shafts - dunno if they do stuff to order tho...
atb
steve
UPDATE - have just emailed luego to see if they do this - might be a better option if cheaper! suspect they have sleeves off the shelf rather than
getting a special made. will post the answer.
quote:
Originally posted by colmaccoll
didnt realise it was a possibility to have them cut and shut, anyone got any names of reputable engineering companies that will undertake the work?
[Edited on 8/10/03 by stephen_gusterson]
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 8/10/03 at 08:51 PM |
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the initial reply from Grant at luego looks good.
They sell sleeves to go over the shaft for you to weld - I need to confirm shaft dia before I know its a goer or not!
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locoboy
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| posted on 9/10/03 at 07:57 AM |
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i will end up with 2 different diameter shafts..........eh lucky me
may need to turn one down to match the skinny one.
Got the ID code off the granada diff, anyone help with finding out the ratio?
85GG HB
4A 8E02 0056
means bugger all to me.
ATB
Locoboy
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Liam
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| posted on 10/10/03 at 10:50 AM |
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Just a thought...
In R5, transaxle is behind engine. In Free Spirit, transaxle is in front of engine. So you'd think that these Free Spirit thingies go
backwards. I take it they dont, so when these things were built they surely must have had the diff internals flipped?? So if your mate is able to
flip the diff inards back to how they were in the R5 they'll be right for the Vmax engine??
Word of caution though - there is a subtle difference between flipping a transaxle/diff to reverse the drive direction when using a conventional
rotating engine, and flipping a diff to keep the same direction of drive when using a counter-rotating engine. In the former case (as mentioned in
other posts) the diff is still running in the correct direction, albeit up-side-down, which is no problem and regularly done. In the latter case the
diff is running in the wrong direction which is apparently not at all good resulting in noise and a short life.
Whatever solution you choose (flip R5 internals or sierra diff) you'll be running the diff backwards. Having said that, people who say you
shouldn't do this always seem to be speaking theoretically rather than from experience. With an overbuilt and heavy car diff in a featherweight
three wheeler the diff might last. Dunno.
Go on - give it a go
Liam
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locoboy
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| posted on 10/10/03 at 11:07 AM |
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Liam,
Thanks for the insight.
We broke the gearbox and diff open last night and there is a huge amount of wear on the diff internals as it is, it used to whine and grumble a bit
when it was still in the car, so i think its fooked anyway.
We have progressed with the Granada diff, needed to grind away some of the cast flanges on one side, hopfully this wont cause any structural
issues.
The diff sould be mounted in place by the end of the weekend and we have got the UJ from the bike welded and balanced to the diff flange thus
removing the need for a small prop shaft and intermeduate bearing.
Will try to post a piccy (never done it before!) if i can get one this weekend so all those who have chucked in their 2 peneth worth can have a gander
at this project, it may make things a little clearer for you too!
if all goes to plan it should be back on the road by Feb and it will just be like an incredibly fast sledge!
Assuming all the drive train is mounted securely enough that it doesnt flip through the bonnet the first time the V-boost comes on!
You can remove the small arm that is used by the v-boost motor to activate the butterflys at 6000rpm and convert it to a manual choke cable type
affair so you can pull the cable any time you like and wham, lots more grunt on demand, sounds cool!
ATB
Locoboy
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