MakeEverything
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 04:03 PM |
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Black, Red or Silver??
As posted on a different thread under my wanted post, but;
What is the fundamental difference between the Black, Silver or Red top engine aside from the obvious difference in manufacturer for the red top?
What are the advantages of each?
I feel kind of stupid for asking, but i dont think ive ever read the answer before.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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marcjagman
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 04:05 PM |
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Makes 2 of us
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 04:17 PM |
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Black and Silver top Ford engines were found in Escorts, Mondeos and Orions of various guises, ranging in power (assuming you're looking at the
possibility of using them in a 7) from the early 1.8l Zetec 105bhp, to 115bhp, and Escort GTi 130bhp. The 2l version had power ranges from 130bhp to
145bhp dependant on Silver top (early) to Black top (late) models.
That's about the extent on my knowledge on them! But here we go...
The Redtop was Vauxhall's original flagship engine, found initially in the Mk2 Astra GTE 2.0l 16V (complete with Starship Enterprise style
digidash - I had one!). It was later used in Cavalier GSi's, Calibras, and the Mk3 Astra GSi's before being replaced with the less
powerful but more economic 130bhp Ecotec engines. Power figures vary, but 150bhp was always quoted as the actual figure, and circa 140lb/ft of torque
as standard. Redtops had hydraulic lifters, which if not looked after, sounded like a bag of spanners after a while. Patent replacements are
available but useless, and OE ones from a dealer cost IRO £400+ all in.
They also had some problems with porous heads, but the one to watch out for was the Coscast (Cosworth) based head, which didn't suffer from this
issue. It was only a limited number of cars that suffered from the issue, but don't know specifics off the top of my head. Also choices in the
redtop were dizzy or dizzyless ignition systems, as changed over time.
Can be run of twin 40's, 45's, or seen a few tuned up ones on 48's. Can be tuned to circa 200bhp on standard internals, after that,
uprated bits were required. At this point, it's worth looking at the C20LET, the turbo version of the Redtop, which produced 205bhp as
standard, and ran a 4wd gearbox in Cavaliers and Calibras.
How does that sound?
[Edited on 16/9/09 by Charlie_Zetec]
Forgot to mention that the Redtop is a heavier lump overall, but appear to have more tuning options, in my opinion. Is has more power as standard,
but I'm not sure how this would compare to the Dagenham boys' efforts if put head to head - perhaps someone else can answer that.
[Edited on 16/9/09 by Charlie_Zetec]
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 04:47 PM |
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Thanks for that.
Im looking to replace the 2.2 renault 124bhp box of nails, in my mid engined kit.
The type R is a very attractive option but pricey, and the 1.6 or 1.8 not really an option at all. This leaves the 2.0 Zetec, 2.0 Duratec, 2.0 Red
top or a V engine.
The V engine will go in, but wont leave much room at all for much else, and i would anticipate heat issues being an all fibreglass body - though this
can be overcome.
The idea would be to find a powerplant that can be purchased very cheaply with reasonable power already, but futureproofed to meet the tinkering i
plan to do in the future.
Ive read Flak_Monkey's Duratec information which is really interesting, but having just bought the car etc, cashflow is a little one sided at
the moment!
Thanks for the info, it clears things up a little for me, and has helped me understand that i need either a cheap red top, Zetec or Duratec if anyone
has got one lying around!
Thanks.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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UncleFista
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 04:59 PM |
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Just pointing out the Escort GTi has the 115ps engine, it was the Escort XR3i and the Orion Si that had the 130ps version.
Also the main difference between the silver and black top Zetecs is the silvertop has hydraulic lifters, the blacktop's are solid.
[Edited on 16/9/09 by UncleFista]
Tony Bond / UncleFista
Love is like a snowmobile, speeding across the frozen tundra.
Which suddenly flips, pinning you underneath.
At night the ice-weasels come...
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locost@mintynet.com
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 06:25 PM |
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Richard
We met at the SG7s meet a few weeks ago, I have just changed my Supercat from carbs to efi, so now have going spare a v3 TPS megajolt ecu (you would
need VR sensor, EDIS, Coil pack and wiring loom) also complete carb setup for a silvertop zetec, when rolling roaded a few years back it made 120bhp
on the flywheel, this is limited by the 32mm chokes, I beleive they can be changed to 36mm to get about 140bhp. The carbs include manifold, carbs,
dual cable underneath linkage, short trumpets and TPS sensor. You may also need a fuel pressure regulator.
Make me a sensible offer, we all know how much this stuff goes for.
PM Me
Ian
www.mintynet.com
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02GF74
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
The Redtop was Vauxhall's original flagship engine, found initially in the Mk2 Astra GTE 2.0l 16V (complete with Starship Enterprise style
digidash - I had one!).
Power figures vary, but 150bhp was always quoted as the actual figure, and circa 140lb/ft of torque as standard. Redtops had hydraulic lifters, which
if not looked after, sounded like a bag of spanners after a while.
I owned one too - 16 engine with sodium filled hollow valves ISTR  
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 07:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
Thanks for the info, it clears things up a little for me, and has helped me understand that i need either a cheap red top, Zetec or Duratec if anyone
has got one lying around!
If you need cheap, then the Zetec will win hands down. They can be bought for peanuts if you hang around on eBay, and the scrapyards are full of
rotting Escorts and crashed Mondeos.
However, it isn't going to be much of an upgrade from the Renault without a bit of tuning. The 20XE (red top engine) starts with more power
than any of the Zetecs had (apart from ST170...but they are expensive engines), and it's easier to extract even more power. On the downside the
20XE is heavier than the Zetec, and I think a little taller.
The Duratec is a nice light engine with good tuning potential. They are not the cheap option however.
[Edited on 16/9/09 by MikeRJ]
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 08:19 PM |
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Early, ‘Silver Top’ engines (with an aluminium cam cover) were fitted to Escorts from 1991 onwards, late Fiesta Mk3s and then the Mondeo. These early
units were known as Zeta (only becoming Zetec in 1993). The unit evolved into the Black Top unit (with a plastic cam cover) with the Escort phased out
and Focus introduction. These later engines have longer rods and lower piston crowns, mechanical rather than hydraulic lifters plus the distinctive
black cam cover.
Initially there were 90, 105 and 115bhp 1800cc Escort versions, with 115 and 130bhp 2 litre Mondeo units too. There were also 130bhp RS1800
Fiesta/XR3i variations with revised cams and re-mapped ECU’s. The hottest n/a version was the ST170 with solid lifters, steel rods, waisted valves and
variable valve timing (VVT). The motor went on to power the Focus RS but in turbocharged form. Both the ST and RS engines were confusingly re-badged
as a Duratec.
More Info on the Burton Power web site
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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SPYDER
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 08:23 PM |
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What about the Celica / MR2 3SGE 2 litre?
Pushes out 173bhp as standard in Rev3 guise ie. 1994 to 97 or thereabouts.
Prices from £300 upwards.
The BEAMS Variable Valve timing versions are upwards of 210bhp but a little more pricey.
These are all NA engines.
The 3SGTE turbo version is over 200bhp standard and easily makes 280, or as much as you like, depending on the depth of your pocket.
I have a Rev3 in my Spyder.
Geoff
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tomprescott
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| posted on 16/9/09 at 09:44 PM |
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Try and get hold of a CA18det or SR20det engine (both nissans) for under £400 and you'll have got yourself a bargain, easily tuneable - over
200bhp without damaging reliability - if you want an uncontrollable track animal then 400+ is readily achievable!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by locost@mintynet.com
Richard
We met at the SG7s meet a few weeks ago, I have just changed my Supercat from carbs to efi, so now have going spare a v3 TPS megajolt ecu (you would
need VR sensor, EDIS, Coil pack and wiring loom) also complete carb setup for a silvertop zetec, when rolling roaded a few years back it made 120bhp
on the flywheel, this is limited by the 32mm chokes, I beleive they can be changed to 36mm to get about 140bhp. The carbs include manifold, carbs,
dual cable underneath linkage, short trumpets and TPS sensor. You may also need a fuel pressure regulator.
Make me a sensible offer, we all know how much this stuff goes for.
PM Me
Ian
www.mintynet.com
Thanks Ian,
Ive got Megasquirt, which ive jsut bought a stim for, so that i can play and learn with that. This is earmarked for the new project.
Thanks for the offer. I might need some of what you have if you have a price in mind?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
However, it isn't going to be much of an upgrade from the Renault without a bit of tuning.
I know the standard engine wont put much more out than the 2.2 renault, but the renault engine is on its way out, and replacing it is cheaper than
finding parts and rebuilding the bottom end, or trying to squeeze 150hp from it.
Also, performance parts are readily available for most of the engines mentioned above, so another reason for going mainstream really. Prices and
availability.
Target power is upwards of 200bhp, so a non-standard engine is a must, given the space / design limitations of the car.
I have a fantastic opportunity to build this engine properly whilst the car still runs (albeit unreliably so), so id rather spend the next 6 months
putting it together and bench testing it to get it running correctly with MS, before taking the car off the road for a transplant. When the car is
off the road, there are other jobs that ive got planned, such as the chassis painted, brake overhaul / uprated calipers, paint job (if not done
already), etc etc etc. - Hence the desire to bench test the engine before it goes in.
[Edited on 17/9/09 by MakeEverything]
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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ss1turbo
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 05:11 PM |
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If it has a Renault engine at the moment, is it a transverse or transaxle mounting arrangement?
Couple of off the wall solution if you're after a cheap transverse "package" - and both from Rover!
Honda 2.0/2.3 lump from a 600, or the T16 Rover lump (also with a turbo). Rover 600's never make decent money - even as breakers.
If its a RWD application then the sky is the limit - but if space is an issue, look Japanese as their engines tend to be smaller externally. Just
about any 4-pot 2.0 can make nigh-on 200bhp, but its only the common ones which get there with an induction/cam change (Duratec/XE etc).
If space is the limiting factor for a V6, then look at the VW VR6 engine (almost 200bhp as they come) - sadly not the cheapest to buy though; you
could get a Duratec for that money.
Long live RWD...
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ZEN
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:26 PM |
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The FORD DURATEC "black top" is all alloy. And as I'm aware the 2.0l it's the same as in the MAZDA 6 and it wont fit a Type9
or MT75 gearbox without an adapter plate.
The FORD DURATEC "silver top" was previously known as ZETEC and is a bolt on to Type9 or MT75 gearbox.
More info on engines here: http://westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html
My YouTube channel Cars, bikes - track days, motorsport, sim racing and more.
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flak monkey
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ZEN
The FORD DURATEC "black top" is all alloy. And as I'm aware the 2.0l it's the same as in the MAZDA 6 and it wont fit a Type9
or MT75 gearbox without an adapter plate.
The FORD DURATEC "silver top" was previously known as ZETEC and is a bolt on to Type9 or MT75 gearbox.
Nope sorry.
There are 2 versions of the duratec but neither have been officially called the black and silver top.
The mondeo version 2001-2005 had an aluminium cam cover.
The focus and later mondeo have a black plastic cam cover.
Thats about it. Both are the same power, same block, same internals etc etc.
Neither will bolt straight to a type 9. The only Duratec badged engine which will is an ST170, which is actually a zetec with a duratec badge.
Cheers,
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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ss1turbo
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:40 PM |
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quote:
The only Duratec badged engine which will is an ST170, which is actually a zetec with a duratec badge.
Cheers,
David
..and the one from the Focus RS...
Long live RWD...
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flak monkey
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ss1turbo
quote:
The only Duratec badged engine which will is an ST170, which is actually a zetec with a duratec badge.
Cheers,
David
..and the one from the Focus RS...
Nope thats a volvo T5 engine.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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ss1turbo
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by ss1turbo
quote:
The only Duratec badged engine which will is an ST170, which is actually a zetec with a duratec badge.
Cheers,
David
..and the one from the Focus RS...
Nope thats a volvo T5 engine.
I was on about the 4 cylinder variant..
Long live RWD...
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flak monkey
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 07:44 PM |
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Ahh yes, was thinking of the ST
My apologies
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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ZEN
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| posted on 17/9/09 at 09:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by ZEN
The FORD DURATEC "black top" is all alloy. And as I'm aware the 2.0l it's the same as in the MAZDA 6 and it wont fit a Type9
or MT75 gearbox without an adapter plate.
The FORD DURATEC "silver top" was previously known as ZETEC and is a bolt on to Type9 or MT75 gearbox.
Nope sorry.
There are 2 versions of the duratec but neither have been officially called the black and silver top.
The mondeo version 2001-2005 had an aluminium cam cover.
The focus and later mondeo have a black plastic cam cover.
Thats about it. Both are the same power, same block, same internals etc etc.
Neither will bolt straight to a type 9. The only Duratec badged engine which will is an ST170, which is actually a zetec with a duratec badge.
Cheers,
David
FORD made it quite complicated with the naming of the engines:
http://burtonpower.co.uk/technical_1/zetec_e.aspx
[Edited on 17/9/09 by ZEN]
My YouTube channel Cars, bikes - track days, motorsport, sim racing and more.
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 18/9/09 at 09:48 AM |
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So it really points to 2. Zetec or 2.0 / 2.2 Duratec still.
The engine is mid mounted, with a renault transaxle, Not transverse.
Ive found someone that will sell me a bellhousing, but for £500!
- Adapter plate here i come!
The drive shafts are in the optimal position currently, and the firewall is the restrictive thing space wise. So i dont want to move the transmission
and drive shafts, leaving me with a set space for the new engine.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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NS Dev
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| posted on 18/9/09 at 08:23 PM |
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Adaptor to fit redtop to renault transaxle is (or certainly used to be) available off the shelf. Talk to these guys:
Banks Service Station Linky
redtop with throttle bodies but std cams and std internally will make around 200hp (good ones do with decent compression, crap million milers still
make 175 hp though on throttle bodies, recently saw one make that even though it was smoking like a chimney and clearly knackered)
Mine made 176hp @ wheels and 204hp flywheel in my locost, bog std engine.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 20/9/09 at 10:17 AM |
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Ive done it.
I bought a 1.8 Zetec (1994 XR3i) with edis, gearbox (MTX75), starter, alternator, loom, manifolds etc etc, for £100.
Not Exactly what i wanted, but should be enough to get started on the adapter plate.
Anyone got any useful information on this engine?
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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mrwibble
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| posted on 20/9/09 at 02:39 PM |
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xr3i probabley had a decent cam profile for fast road? how many miles has it done. i'm guessing thats using hydraulic lifters.
[Edited on 20/9/09 by mrwibble]
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