HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 07:40 PM |
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MS and multiple injectors per pot?
A quick one, I have MS, and I am planning to fit hayabusa throttle bodies to the Zetec, that will mean that there is an option of having 8
injectors,... I have read all the words I can about inj position and throttle body length and notice that some setups use 2 inj per pot.
Is this possible with MS?
thanks in advance
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:05 PM |
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Possible but the standard hardware only has 2 injector drivers which limits you to one driver for the head injectors and one driver for the throttle
injectors. If you are just running a standard Zetec I can't really see the point in running any additional injectors.
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HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:08 PM |
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I agree it is a very bog standard zetec, and so is more of a "can it be done" rather than is there any point?
It would make an interesting exercise, and something different from standard,..
thanks
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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will121
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:08 PM |
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Sure there is something on extraefI web site about staged injection, I'm running duel stage with emerald ecu zetec and gsxr1000 injectors
don't know if there is any benefits or just more complicated but as you say its different if its mapped again will ask to do RR runs to see.
[Edited on 3/4/11 by will121]
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:14 PM |
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In MS language it is called staged injection. It is possible to drive more than 2 injector lines from MS, but generally 2 is what you get.
So in your case, you would end up with batch mode on all 4 inner injectors, and the same on the 4 outer injectors, and the MS2 would run the inners up
to some RPM and/or TPS and/or MAP limit and then power up both the inner and outer injectors.
The benefits should be improved charge density (better cooling of the air from the outer injectors) and improved mixture homogenisation .
MS1 is a bit limited for staged because you can't bring the outer injectors in gradually (it is all or nothing), if you upgrade to the MS2
daughter card (a good idea for several reasons, and not expensive) then you will get better control of the transition.
The other benefit of all this is that you can use the stock injectors and will get enough fuel without messing around. I ran MS2 with staged
injection in the way described above and it worked well (with gsxr1000 TBI's into my gsxr1100w).
I say do it.
Matt
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HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by will121
Sure there is something on extraefI web site about staged injection, I'm running duel stage with emerald ecu zetec and gsxr1000 injectors
don't know if there is any benefits or just more complicated but as you say its different if its mapped again will ask to do RR runs to see.
[Edited on 3/4/11 by will121]
This sounds like the kind of thing that I was thinking of, so you have both the standard Zetec inj, and also the ones in the TBs? Or have I got the
wrong end of the stick?
What kicked this off was the interesting info on the Jenvey website, and then further research into the effect of the injection point at different
rpm. As above it is a boring old 120,000m 2.0 Zetec and so this might well be wasted, but then maybe if it works ok it could go on the next
engine,..
Will, and any one else for that matter, thanks in advance for all your time and input, I feel as though there is so much to learn, every day is a
school day
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
In MS language it is called staged injection. It is possible to drive more than 2 injector lines from MS, but generally 2 is what you get.
So in your case, you would end up with batch mode on all 4 inner injectors, and the same on the 4 outer injectors, and the MS2 would run the inners up
to some RPM and/or TPS and/or MAP limit and then power up both the inner and outer injectors.
The benefits should be improved charge density (better cooling of the air from the outer injectors) and improved mixture homogenisation .
MS1 is a bit limited for staged because you can't bring the outer injectors in gradually (it is all or nothing), if you upgrade to the MS2
daughter card (a good idea for several reasons, and not expensive) then you will get better control of the transition.
The other benefit of all this is that you can use the stock injectors and will get enough fuel without messing around. I ran MS2 with staged
injection in the way described above and it worked well (with gsxr1000 TBI's into my gsxr1100w).
I say do it.
Matt
I will need to look more closely at the MS unit that I have, but I agree it sounds like an interesting project to play with,.. thanks for your words
of encouragement
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:34 PM |
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When I investigated this, the more I read about it the more obvious it became.
The Greame Bell (4 stroke tuning) suggests an easy 5% power improvement and those motorcycle manufacturers don't add weight and complexity
unless there is a real benefit.
ms2 daughter card upgrade is only $96 and yields other benefits (loads and loads of little improvements over MS1).
Matt
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will121
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
quote:
Originally posted by will121
Sure there is something on extraefI web site about staged injection, I'm running duel stage with emerald ecu zetec and gsxr1000 injectors
don't know if there is any benefits or just more complicated but as you say its different if its mapped again will ask to do RR runs to see.
[Edited on 3/4/11 by will121]
This sounds like the kind of thing that I was thinking of, so you have both the standard Zetec inj, and also the ones in the TBs? Or have I got the
wrong end of the stick?
Yes that's exactly what I've done but not on a locost, may be issues with inlet lenght for clearance will get some pictures up
[Edited on 3/4/11 by will121]
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BenTyreman
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
The Greame Bell (4 stroke tuning) suggests an easy 5% power improvement and those motorcycle manufacturers don't add weight and complexity
unless there is a real benefit.
Matt
How far away from the head are the secondary injectors to get that power increase? The original primary bike injectors are only about 3 inches further
away than the head injectors. I did originally consider using the bike secondary injectors but couldn't find the room for them.
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HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:44 PM |
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this sounds more interesting the more you post, especially the 5% bit,.. I had thought that I might be able to use the second set to give better
efficiency as well as better power, the idea being that fuel injected further out would be better mixed by the time it arrived at the engine,..
keep it coming, this is all fantastic stuff
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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HowardB
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by will121
quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
quote:
Originally posted by will121
Sure there is something on extraefI web site about staged injection, I'm running duel stage with emerald ecu zetec and gsxr1000 injectors
don't know if there is any benefits or just more complicated but as you say its different if its mapped again will ask to do RR runs to see.
[Edited on 3/4/11 by will121]
This sounds like the kind of thing that I was thinking of, so you have both the standard Zetec inj, and also the ones in the TBs? Or have I got the
wrong end of the stick?
Yes that's exactly what I've done will try get some pictures up
thanks, pictures would be great,..
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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ashg
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| posted on 3/4/11 at 08:55 PM |
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get a ms3 with the ms3x card they can run 8 injectors sequentially with no modifications.
if you already have a megasquirt with the v3 board all you need to buy is the new ms3 daughter card ms3x board and the new bigger case.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 8/4/11 at 09:30 AM |
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my set-up was like this (before I took it off to put a turbo on!).
mock-up;
then final version.
 
Air_box_internals
 
Air_box_installed
Outer injectors were cbr1000rr 2004 with rail, respaced by about 15mm in the middle.
Seemed to work well.
I even managed some ram-air with that airbox pipe to front.
Ended up making a different air-temp sensor (from a maplin thermistor) as the GSXR600 one was slow to respond to temperature changes. Also I
insulated the airbox for heat.
Some info in this thread.
Maybe a bit more information in the blog. http://matt-phoenix.blogspot.com/
I never got around to the rolling road, but it seemed to keep up with the traffic 
Only putting a turbo on because I fancied the challenge.
Matt
edited to say, sorry, pictures don't show inner injectors. THese are in the standard location for the gsxr1000 bodies. I originally ran
gsxr1000 (same as 600 and 1300) injectors, but changed them to smaller Honda Civic (can't remember engine code) injectors as this works better
with staged. Didn't make a big difference to running, but fuel map was smoother as the old MS staged injection code assumed larger outer than
inner injectors. I should really have got it on a rolling road to see what bhp it was making, but I'm too tight for that.
[Edited on 8/4/11 by matt_gsxr]
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