macbrew
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 posted on 19/5/03 at 07:28 PM |
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Tube "R"
Just dropped in my 1300 X Flow and found that tube "R" (fitted as book measurements) was touching the fuel pump so I had to move it. Just
another little mistake Ron.
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craig1410
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| posted on 19/5/03 at 08:33 PM |
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Hi,
I have a related, if not identical issue which hopefully someone can help me with.
I'm fitting a Rover V8 in my book +4" wider chassis. Tube 'R' is going to go right through some fairly important parts of my
engine so I either have to remove one of my cylinder heads or remove tube 'R'. Is there an alternative route which this tube can take and
how much of a problem would it give me if I didn't fit it at all?
I was thinking of moving the forward end of 'R' backwards along tube 'J2' and then fitting another one on the other side
symmetrically to add the lost stiffness.
Any thoughts? Cymtriks, what do you think?
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 08:41 AM |
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Craig,
I've stuck a doodle in the photos archive called "R replacement" (red lines!!).
This is what Luego do on the Viento, and was suggested to me.
Hope this helps.
ATB
Simon
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James
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 10:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Craig,
I've stuck a doodle in the photos archive called "R replacement" (red lines!!).
This is what Luego do on the Viento, and was suggested to me.
Hope this helps.
ATB
Simon
That's pretty much what I'll be doing once the engine is in place. Although the closer to rails 'S' and 'T' that
you can get the R rails the better I'd have thought.
Cymtrics' plans also suggest putting in a second 'R' tube.
HTH,
James
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Chris Leonard
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 12:46 PM |
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The engine should sit slightly left of centre 19mm if I remember correctly this gives just enough clearance for the fuel pump and helps the angle of
the propshaft
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Lars
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 03:53 PM |
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i thought the angle of the propshaft is created by having the diff in the axle slightly off centre, so the engine can sit central.
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craig1410
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 11:06 PM |
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Thanks Simon and James.
Simon, your doodle is exactly what I was intending. I also plan to carry out some mods along the lines of what Cymtriks has recommended, especially
for the triangulation within the LA,LB,LC,LD assembly. I may also double up J1 and J2 horizontally between FU1/2 and the corner braces in your doodle
Simon. This was part of some suggestions made by Syd Bridge and it should (in my mind) help to make up for the fact that the small corner braces
between Q and J1/2 don't go as far forward as they would if the book plans were followed (ie. Tube R fitted)
I agree with you James though and don't plan to change too much until the engine is in final resting position...
Cheers,
Craig.
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craig1410
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| posted on 20/5/03 at 11:10 PM |
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Just a thought on the subject of propshaft angle:
Simon, did you mount your Sierra diff along the chassis center and did you also mount the gearbox output shaft along chassis center? This is what I
have planned although I am aware of the issue of having some misalignment to stop the needle bearings wearing out too fast. My theory is that since
the gearbox output flange and the diff flange are at different heights then that should do the trick.
Am I right? It's not too late since my gearbox/engine is not fixed yet.
Cheers,
Craig.
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MikeP
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 01:12 AM |
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You might want to double check the recommendations for aligning the gearbox and propshaft outputs. I'm pretty sure the issue isn't how
they align left/right or up/down, that's not a big deal within reason. I believe it's that you set them up to be parallel and then adjust
one or the other by 3 degrees to allow for even needle wear.
I've also read that it doesn't really make any difference and you should just set them parallel - the experts don't agree.
HTH
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 09:05 AM |
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This 'offset' thing has come up a couple times, and it got me worried. I have thought it through, and can see no vital reason for an
'offet' to HAVE TO BE included.
But then im not a motor engineer and I hope someone can shed more light.
If you look ar most diffs, be it IRS like a sierra or beam / live like a cortina, the diff IS offset and the driveshafts are unequal length.
Reason? The crown wheel takes the drive into the diff, which then has the 'sun and planet' or whatever they are called, gears to one side.
So, the input shaft is either gonna be central, with unequal shafts due to gears on one side of crownwheel, or the input shaft is a bit to one side
with the shafts equal length.
One think I have learnt that MUST be avoided is the gearbox and or diff flanges being out of paralell (sp?).
UJ 'spider' joints are not 'constant velocity' - they cant take the acelleration an slowing down created internally in the bearing
as the joint acellerates and dips into anglular movements of the prop / spider / flange.
any comments at to why an 'angle' is considered desirable, and that all in line - which seesm eutopian, is wrong....
atb
steve
 
Rescued attachment diff1.jpg
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Simon
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 11:20 AM |
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In order
Chris,
Craig and I are both building our cars "book + 4" wide" and using Rover V8 and (me) IRS and (Craig) de Dion, so quite a lot of what
RC did is irrelevant. Mech fuel pump on R V8 is on the nearside. Just got an SD1 cover, so that is actually blanked already (use electric pump).
However, other items do get in the way - oil pump/steering column (going remote).
However, I have mounted engine 1" to nearside to try and miss above.
Lars/Craig
The (Sierra) diff is mounted with the diff input on the chassis centreline. One side of the diff is wider than the other, to which the shorter of the
drive shafts is attached - though I'm sure you knew this already.
This gearbox output is also on the chassis centreline.
This may or may not be the attidude, but I'm not going to get excited about 1" misalignment over the length of engine/box (60" ?)
About 1.7%
I do believe that on the vertical measurement, I have about 5mm diff - but that can be corrected with a spacer on g/box mounting - though not too
worried about that either.
Hope this helps chaps
ATB
Simon
PS Craig- sending you an email!!
PPS Wish I'd waited now - cos I want a Chevy powered Viento:-(
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 11:27 AM |
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Simon
on a live axle it bounces up and down a few degrees anyway.......
atb
steve
ps
your engine being 1 inch out of line is in line with the 'desirable not to be in line' urban myth (?or not)
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 12:00 PM |
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Simon,
I may still run into problems with clearance on the engine but for now my engine is on the centreline and in line with the centreline throughout its
length. My diff is also on the centreline and yes I know about the unequal length shafts thanks...
I agree with what Steve is saying about the UJ's not being of the CV variety and I think that it is indeed very important that the input and
output flanges of diff and g/box are in the same plane as exactly as possible or vibration will result. I don't know if 1 inch in 60 is accurate
enough or not but I hope to get it as accurate as I can manage by bolting a straight edge to each flange and making them parallel at the tips of the
straight edge.
It might be worthwhile talking to Mike from Autoprop and asking him how much misalignment is permissible. I've not actually fitted my engine yet
so I can change strategy a bit if necessary. From what you are saying about clearance my Wife might be about to lose some legroom from her
footwell...
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 01:31 PM |
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Craig,
I got an SD1 front cover and fitted it yesterday.
There is very little clearance at the front of the engine, to the extent that I can only get the front pulley on one way round (ie about 1.5" ,
so make sure you get engine as far back as poss!!
Also - got my radiator (from Eurocarparts - ordered 3.30pm Tue - arrived 3.30pm Wed - amazing) - nice fit behind my widened nosecone!!
ATB
Simon
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 03:08 PM |
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does that tight fit not make it a bit hard to pull the engine out from the box - can you get it out with the box attatched?
atb
steve
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Simon
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 03:45 PM |
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Steve,
Whole lot comes out in one go - though haven't tried with the SD1 cover (only with RR cover.
Will find out this weekend as while fitting clutch slave last w/e all bits fell out!!!
I am hoping (optimist) to have a go at starting engine, possibly, on Monday.
No silencers yet, so won't be running for long!
ATB
Simon
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/5/03 at 11:23 PM |
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Simon,
What is the difference between the RR cover and the SD1 one? Which do you recommend I should use?
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 08:40 AM |
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Craig,
I lifted this from the relevant Rimmer page:
"Timing Cover Identification - Up to 1994
There are 2 main types of timing cover, fitted up to late 1994:
1. Saloon/sports, as fitted to Rover saloons and Triumph TR8s.
2. 4 x 4, as fitted to Range Rovers and Land Rovers.
The saloon/sports version has a more compact water pump, mounted lower down for improved bonnet clearance. The 4x4 version has a water pump mounted
higher up. In addition, the 4x4 timing cover usually has a mud shield to protect the front crank oil seal. Both types will fit all versions of the
engine (providing suitable ancillaries are available) and both types are further categorised as follows:-
The timing cover fitted to early vehicles (prior to 1976) incorporates an oil pump gear-housing designed for the early, 'short' oil pump
gears. Later timing covers have a deeper gear-housing, accommodating the longer pump gears used from the SD1 (1976) until the introduction of the
crank-driven oil pump (late 1994 on). Although the two types of timing cover are interchangeable, the oil pump hears and distributor would also need
to be changed.
If, however, uprating the early (pre 1976) oil pump is your intention, purchase Oil Pump Kit RB7480, which contains a spacer and longer gears, along
with the correct distributor drive, designed specifically for the early timing cover. (RB7480 is not suitable for later timing covers, 1976
onwards)."
Swapping ancilliaries includes crank pulley etc
I'm waiting for a book by David Hardcastle called "The Rover V8 Engine" - not the tuning version (already have that) - should
explain all interchangeability options and the Haynes SD1 manual.
I have a RR crank pulley, and an SD1 water pump pulley so will need to make a spacer about an inch thick.
Need to think about "fan" belt route too.
I'll put some picks up over the next few days
As to which I recommend - give me a while to think about/sort it out!!!
ATB
Simon
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craig1410
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 08:51 AM |
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Thanks Simon, will do.
BTW, would you recommend the David Hardcastle books?
Also, I have a scruffy copy of the Rover SD1 workshop manual so let me know if you need any bits scanned in and emailed to you. It's good in
some respects but poor in others but it might help in some cases where a different perspective to the Haynes manual is required.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Rob Lane
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 08:58 AM |
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The 1300 xflow will just touch it. Why not remove mechanical pump, blank it off and fit an electrical one, much simpler.
The mechanical one is not known for it's reliability.
Rob Lane
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Simon
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 09:37 AM |
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Craig,
Thanks for offer - may well take you up on it some time, as I'm hoping to get myself an SD1 Vitesse towards the end of the year:-) (Rolling
resto, assuming Locost done!?!?!?)
Hardcastles "Tuning the Rover V8" seems quite comprehensive, but is now quite dated, talking of the "forthcoming 3.9" and
rumours of a 4.2 etc etc. Also, IIRC, all photo's are B&W - bit dissappointing for 17? quid.
If you can get a cheap 2nd h copy - might be worth it.
As for the other - still waiting for it to arrive, so will let you know.
ATB
Simon
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elewayne
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 04:36 PM |
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Tube R
At the very first of this string Macbrew wrote that Tube R got in the way of his engine fit. "just another mistake Ron"
I'd just like to defend Ron and the book for a second.
( not that either need my defence)
The book makes no claims that it dosn't live up to, in my openion.
It dosn't claim to be an instruction manual.
Only a guide line for building your own version of a Seven.
It is also very diffacult to get a book like this published with out any mistakes. Most arn't that hard to find or deal with.
You have to use your own common sence
when following the text.
Looks like you might have guessed that tube R might have to be installed after the engine to avoid problems.
Stop crying, get back to work, reroute tube R to somewhere else and get on with your car.
Good luck in the future!!
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macbrew
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 07:45 PM |
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Not cryin just commenting.
The book clearly states that the measurements given are for 1300 x flow. It does not say anything about fitting tube R later. As I read it the idea is
to get the chassis completely finished and painted before bolting on the rest (which we all know is impossible). If you followed the book measurements
for the rear axle mountings the axle wouldn't move at all, and that would have pi$$ed me off.
I dread to think what the first edition was like.
Any body out there actually built one for £250 ? It's clearly a joke! I,m on a shoestring budget so far pushing £700 and it's not even on
it's wheels yet.
What was the question again?
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craig1410
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 08:15 PM |
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Macbrew,
You didn't seriously think you could build a car for £250 did you? Didn't you do any research on the subject first?
I'm also on a budget and I still reckon that £2000 will be hard enough to meet and 12-18 months build time even harder but those are my targets.
It'll cost over £250 for the 4 coils and shock absorbers alone!
Uncle Ron may have made a few booboo's in the book but I've made even more just trying to follow his plans, even the bits with no errors!
I can't imagine how many errors I would have made if I'd been designing the car as I went along from scratch... 
I must say that I had no intention to fit Tube R until the engine was in no matter what the book says and I didn't even fit tubes G1 and G2
until I had a transmission and engine block to measure against. The trannie tunnel was the same although I am using a Rover V8 and not a 1300 xflow so
I had a few more issues I guess.
I agree that the book should be taken at face value and used as a guide only. If you are going to complete the build, in my opinion you need to change
your mindset to that of a sculptor and just keep smiling as you chip away the rough edges. If you let little things like the errors in the book get to
you at this early stage then you are very unlikely to finish the build. If money is a problem then be prepared to extend the build time because if you
can't afford to buy something off the shelf then you have to wait for it to become available through the 2nd hand market which always takes much
longer.
Try to enjoy yourself and remain positive!
HTH,
Craig.
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craig1410
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| posted on 22/5/03 at 08:21 PM |
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By the way I see from your profile that you are using Sierra hubs with the book chassis. If this is front Sierra hubs are you aware of the issues with
using these with 'book' wishbones? You need mcpherson strut adapters and you need to modify the lower balljoint taper to suit the Cortina
balljoint. You also need different length upper(shorter) or lower(longer) arms to compensate for the different hub top arm length which would
otherwise result in huge amounts of positive static camber.
If you can then go for Cortina front hubs as per book. You might have to wait for some to become available but they can be had if you look. I got some
from a fellow LB forum member for £45 in good condition which I'd say is about the going rate. You can get them cheaper from the stock car
racers and at autojumbles.
Good luck!
Craig.
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