mranlet
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 posted on 11/8/03 at 03:35 PM |
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AWD engine choices
As a lot of people have probably gathered from my inceasant saying of it - I'm designing my frame with the infamous RB26DETT AWD drivetrain in
mind...
However, I've been doing a lot of thinking and am considering a substitute drive system for the short run or perhaps to build a prototype to be
sold in order to fund the RB26 installment. If I were to take the latter route, the prototype would have a desireable enough power plant to draw
$20,000 to $25,000 in sale (10,000 pounds?, quite reasonable for a custom-made car). This would be enough to rent my workshop space, buy the Skyline
parts and sensors that are needed, fund the assembly of the car, and compensate for the hours that I am not working. 
My dilemia is that I need a longitudinally mounted motor with an AWD system that is cheaper than $3500 for the whole bit (if it came in a donor car
that would be even better). I am thinking about using my Ford ZX2 (ZETEC equipped) as the donor, but it is FWD - is the AWD UK ZETEC transmission a
Longitudinal setup? Would Burton Power carry a longitudinal AWD transmission that would be in my cost range?
The use of a Subaru drivetrain is also high on my list, but there is a dire shortage of them here in un-snowy Florida.
Since I'm located in the US, so overseas shipping would have to be kept to a minimum...
Thanks tremendousally for any help or suggestions!
-MR
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mranlet
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| posted on 11/8/03 at 08:33 PM |
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I suppose that I could use an SR20DET and 240SX donor car with only RWD in the meantime, but then it's only RWD!
Thanks in advance
-MR
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Noodle
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| posted on 11/8/03 at 09:38 PM |
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Sierra/Escort Cosworth 4x4 (inline engines) use longitudinal transmissions. Engines were Cosworth 16v (2 litre pinto with 16v head and a turbo)
BMW did the old 525iX a few years back and the 325ix, both longitudinal.
Not sure of the 4WD Skyline's drivetrain layout though, is the engine set behind the front axle or up front? Someone offered me an Audi 80
Quattro tonight for next to nothing (his words) but they use engines way up front hence the understeer.
With all that nice weather though, why not just go RWD and use sticker rubber? You could use the 2.5 straight-six turbo Skyline GTS as a donor then.
That should save a few quid.
Cheers,
Neil.
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mranlet
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| posted on 12/8/03 at 06:43 PM |
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I've thought about using the RB25DET, and may do so. The mounts of all the RWD Nissan cars are interchangable (Datsuns excluded) so even if I
put in the KA24 from the US-market 240SX, I could change it out for an SR20DET or RB25DET without having to tear everything else out. Since the RB25
abd RB26 are based on such a similar block, their mounts are also the same. This causes many of the parts be interchangable as well...
The RB26 sits just about on top of the front wheel line. The front differential accually lies to the right (when sitting in the car) of oil pan
around the 2nd and 3rd cylinders, and the drive line to the left front wheel goes through a tube that goes through the oil pan. (See my photo archive
-> Ex Vi Termini) The drive shaft that connects the front differential to the transfer box can be extended, and the RB26's oil pan swapped
for an RB25's after the front driveline tube has been cut out. This allows the engine to be moved farther rearward and results in better
balance across the wheelbase. I'd love to get a whole Skyline as a donor, but since they're not available here in the US, I can only get
a half cut and would have to use another vehicle for the rear elements. This is part of the reason that it will be so expensive - I will have to buy
the rear Differential's sensors separately.
Subarus generally have a similar layout to the Audi, with all of the motor being ahead of the front wheels. Great for interior space but crappy for
weight distribution.
The Cosworth engines you speak of - Is there an AWD transmission that could bolt to a 2.0L Zetec? I've seen a bunch of racing Focuses that have
their Zetec in longitudinal orientation and have AWD...
I would consider using the transverse 4G63T Lancer/Eclipse driveline, and while it would be really cool, it isn't quite right for the concept of
this car.
All that talk about "sunny Florida" is mostly grandure - it's really only sunny about 2/3 of the time. When it rains here, it
rains! Often times I have to pull off to the side of the expressway in my FWD escort so as not to get run over by the 4wd SUV's.
Other benefits of AWD include:
-AWD burnouts
-4-wheel drifts
-Rallying ability
-To be able to have a car spin on it's axis, smoking all four skins at once at full open throttle - quite a sight!
-MR
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Noodle
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| posted on 12/8/03 at 08:03 PM |
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quote:
Other benefits of AWD include:
-AWD burnouts
-4-wheel drifts
-Rallying ability
-To be able to have a car spin on it's axis, smoking all four skins at once at full open throttle - quite a sight!-MR
OK I can take a hint!  The Escort/Sierra Cosworth 4x4's used the MT75 transmission (in AWD form of course). There's the others listed
here . There are a number of builders using XR4x4 (Sierra) gear on the forum. I dare
say a scout round the web will elicit more details.
ATB,
Neil.
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Liam
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| posted on 20/8/03 at 09:29 PM |
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Hello...
As has been mentioned, the Sierra XR4x4/Cosworth 4x4 running gear would be an ideal lower budget replacement for the Skyline gubbins. The layout is
exactly the same as the Skyline - longitudinal engine and gearbox ==> transfer case on back of box with step-off chain to right hand side ==>
front propshaft from step-off to front diff which is mounted on sump of engine. Drive to rear is as normal RWD.
It's all a fair bit smaller than the Skyline gear and not as clever - uses a standard mechanical centre diff (with 33/66 f/r torque split)
instead of the Skyline's controllable clutch. It's a lot less beefy too - I know people swapping out their Cossie gear in their
Sierra's/Escorts for Skyline gear cos the Skyline stuff is much stronger (for example the transfer chain on the skyline is twice the width of
the cossie version) and the controllable centre 'diff' is desirable too. Having said that the cossie gear takes upwards of 500bhp in many
cars - plenty of uprated parts are available.
I'm assuming the Zetec has the same bolt pattern as the Cosworth 2 litre so you'd be able to bolt a 4x4 cossie box (called an MT75 4x4) to
a zetec - but why not keep the cossie turbo engine?
I'm using cossie 4x4 gear in my 4WD locost. Any 4x4 Focus you've seen with a longitudinal Ford engine almost definately uses this running
gear. I've heard of a few transverse Focus 4x4 conversions too which will probably use the MTX75 4x4 (transverse version of MT75 4x4 used in
escort RS2000 4x4 and Mondeo 4x4, and now [further developed] in the jag X-type).
I'm pretty sure Skyline and Ford 4x4 gear is the only stuff widely available that uses this layout - i.e. longitudinal engine/box and the front
diff can be unbolted from the side of the engine moved forward.
Hope that helps. Good luck with the project sounds awesome! Here's to plenty of 4WD donuts (well more like helicopters really )
Liam
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Rick
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| posted on 24/8/03 at 08:50 PM |
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mranlet, when the Japanese sell a car as half cut it doesn't mean you only get half the car!
It means that they have to cut it in half so that it cannot, in theory be put back on the road. But for what you want that would not be a problem.
As for your substitute drive system there is such a thing as a RB20DET which I am sure you know is a six cylinder as opposed to SR20DET which is a
four. The
RB20DET can be found in the skyline GTS-T R32, and if you look carefully you will find that they also do a 4X4 GTS-t.
This car runs the same gearbox and 4X4 system as the GT-R.
These can be imported into the UK for aroung £2500 in good condition( I actualy import japanese cars).
I would imagine you could find a half cut one for half of that.
The last time I imported and then sold to a guy in the USA he imported the car as a race car to get around the import taxes.
Hope this helps Rick
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carcentric
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| posted on 24/8/03 at 09:58 PM |
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Mranlet -
How about the Toyota Celica All-trac from the late 1980s? Or one of the small Audi Quattros from the same period? If you didn't need an inline
engine, there's always a ton of Subarus and the VW Vanagon Synchro . . . .
M D "Doc" Nugent
http://www.carcentric.com
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Noodle
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| posted on 25/8/03 at 08:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by carcentric
How about the Toyota Celica All-trac from the late 1980s? Or one of the small Audi Quattros from the same period? If you didn't need an inline
engine, there's always a ton of Subarus and the VW Vanagon Synchro . . . .
As far as I'm aware only the Justy and maybe the Vivio were transvered engined. The Justy being a Hungarian-built Suzuki Swift with a rear axle.
It also has the honour in my book as being one of the worst cars I've ever driven. I told my Subaru dealer that it was a discourtesey
car. Wretched. The Legacy, Impreza and SVX are all inline.
Cheers,
Neil.
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