BenB
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 06:57 AM |
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So does this mean that Alex S has to go? Its difficult to see how the "union" can work effectively when one party clearly doesn't
want to be in it and is now probably proper sulky  I reckon we need a referendum down here to see if we want to keep them 
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Irony
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 08:20 AM |
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Personally one good reason for a no result was that we can keep the Union Jack as our flag. In my opinion its the greatest looking flag in the
world!!!!
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r1_pete
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 08:31 AM |
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I wish I'd the time to understand all the arguments / facts, though from what I heard there were very few of the latter, a break away would have
probably cost both parties more than the next 10 years benefit, if there was one.
Salmond did seem quite gracious in defeat listening to the radio on my way to work this morning...
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sdh2903
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 08:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
I wish I'd the time to understand all the arguments / facts, though from what I heard there were very few of the latter, a break away would have
probably cost both parties more than the next 10 years benefit, if there was one.
Salmond did seem quite gracious in defeat listening to the radio on my way to work this morning...
In my opinion this is the only main reason why the yes campaign failed, simply down to a complete lack of Facts.
As much as I'm not a massive fan of Salmond I don't think anyone could say he and his team didn't put on a very good effort, much
more so than the lazy No campaign which only really came to life when the opinion polls became close. To see an 85% turnout is impressive too.
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Texan
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 06:47 PM |
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At 45% against staying this issue is not going away any time soon. There will need to be some major concessions to salve some wounds.
That's a huge amount of discontent and it's going to need to be addressed and soon.
I would not be surprised to see it surface again in a few years.
I drive therefore I am.
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v8kid
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 08:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Texan
At 45% against staying this issue is not going away any time soon. There will need to be some major concessions to salve some wounds.
That's a huge amount of discontent and it's going to need to be addressed and soon.
I would not be surprised to see it surface again in a few years.
I think you underestimate the BRITISH capacity for putting democracy into practice. I doubt any other country could have gone through this process
with so much civility.
I am now even more proud of my country and think we are an example to the rest of the world. Would Spain for example have the courage to do this?
Suppose Texas wanted to be independent would the USA allow the people to have their say? I think not in both cases.
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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RK
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| posted on 19/9/14 at 10:56 PM |
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You did much better with it than our clowns did here, where the question was the very definition of obfuscation. Thankfully people came to their
senses. The questions of military spending came up: don't forget the budget now, is not going to include buying all new stuff, like airplanes
etc. Those cost more than the entire budget of the country sometimes. And that isn't including tanks, water pistols or whatever the army likes
to use, etc.
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Texan
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 03:51 AM |
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quote:
Suppose Texas wanted to be independent would the USA allow the people to have their say? I think not in both cases.
Cheers!
I can guarantee they wouldn't and they'd (Washington) would villify everyone there. It would almost another War of Northern Aggression to
break away even tho by treaty we have the right to. Texas was an independent nation who decided to join the Union with strings attached.
There was a graph floating around recently (around a lot in Texas) that showed the American economy and how it had improved in the last few years.
There was also one floating around without Texas' contribution and w/o Texas it was still in the crapper. So the people the least like Obama
are what's keeping the country afloat.
But that was a given.
[Edited on 20/9/14 by Texan]
I drive therefore I am.
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 07:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by Texan
At 45% against staying this issue is not going away any time soon. There will need to be some major concessions to salve some wounds.
That's a huge amount of discontent and it's going to need to be addressed and soon.
I would not be surprised to see it surface again in a few years.
I think you underestimate the BRITISH capacity for putting democracy into practice.
It also fails to recognise the fact that the SCOTTISH reputation for being all mouth and trousers is well earned...
The Irish were always willing to risk their lives, backed up by guns and bombs, for their principles. Hell, even the Welsh were willing to commit a
few acts of arson to prove their point. The Scottish have just demonstrated that despite all the nationalist bluster and bully-boy tactics in the
campaign, when it came to marking crosses on ballot papers in a free and unfettered vote, they're not even willing to risk any uncertainty to
their wallets.
As far back as the Jacobite rebellion (in which one of my ancestors was a leading player, incidentally), the Scots have had tended to windbag and
bluster about how much they believe in Scottish 'freedom' and independence, but when push comes to shove they prefer getting pissed on
scotch and whinging morosely about it than actually doing something.
It further fails to recognise the ENGLISH talent for presenting themselves as a beacon of democratic reason on the world stage, whilst being a right
bunch of devious, malicious, vindictive and self-serving bastards behind their genteel and self-deprecating front.
All the Westminster government needs to do now is to overburden Scotland with public spending, by the simple means of delivering to them
exactly the additional layers of government and bureaucracy that they're asking for, give their socialist-biased politicians the freedom
to overspend on benefits, health and education, whilst subtly keeping them starved of additional investment elsewhere.
...then wait for the oil to run out.
With such measures and in a generation's time, it will be even more obvious than it is now that independence would be economic suicide.
If the Westminster Government manages this with even the slightest degree of competence, they can put Scotland's nationalist ambitions to bed
forever.
[Edited on 20/9/14 by Sam_68]
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daviep
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 12:20 PM |
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^^^^^ says the man with a chip on his shoulder.
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 12:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by daviep
^^^^^ says the man with a chip on his shoulder.
What chip do you think I have, and on which shoulder, Davie?
I suppose you think I am pro-English, anti-Scottish?
But before mouthing off about chips on shoulders, perhaps we should consider who has just seen their preferred result in the referendum, and who has
just seen their espoused views ass-raped by their own electorate?
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RK
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 01:37 PM |
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Not worth getting your pants in a knot anymore. Of course, this isn't an issue with the Scots.
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daviep
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by daviep
^^^^^ says the man with a chip on his shoulder.
But before mouthing off about chips on shoulders, perhaps we should consider who has just seen their preferred result in the referendum, and who has
just seen their espoused views ass-raped by their own electorate?
Not sure there is any need for references to sexual violence, this is usually a family friendly forum.
Perhaps you are homophobic? Or perhaps with nothing useful to say you just default foul language and insults?
Cheers
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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sdh2903
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 02:24 PM |
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Think he's angling for a cotswolds separation referendum, I say let him have one.............
What's done is done, get over it
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 02:53 PM |
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Actually, sdh, while I live in the Cotswolds, I'm a Yorkshireman by birth, a Scot by heritage, and I work in Wales. I've got a foot in
almost every camp, so you can run, but the only place you could hide would be Belfast...
But surely you can't begrudge us gloating just a little while longer, after all the anti-Union pigswill and propaganda the Scot Nats have
been spouting for the last few months?
Do I sense just the teeniest hint of sour grapes, Davie? 
We're glad to be able to continue milking you for oil revenue...
Ahem; I mean we're glad you've chosen to remain a much-valued part of our great nation
... for a while longer.
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scootz
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 02:57 PM |
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Oh dear Sam. I know you're trolling, but that is quite possibly one of the most bigoted posts I've ever seen on this generally excellent
forum!
I really shouldn't bite, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
It also fails to recognise the fact that the SCOTTISH reputation for being all mouth and no trousers is well earned...
I think you'll find it was a VERY open conversation in Scotland. The Yes's said they would vote 'Yes' and did so. The
No's said they would vote 'No' and did so. The polls suggest that far more switched allegiance from 'No' to
'Yes' in the run up to the vote. I honestly don't think there was a significant number who said one thing and then voted the other
way.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
The Irish were always willing to risk their lives, backed up by guns and bombs, for their principles...
That's such a stupid disrespectful comment... whether your tongue was lodged firmly in your cheek or not! Just moronic! The Irish had their
land forcibly taken from them and were mentally, physically, sexually, and fiscally abused during their occupation. I understand completely why Irish
people took up arms and joined the IRA after the Troubles.
As you are well aware, Scotland's situation is completely different. Our complaints surround FAR more subtle acts of oppression. A democratic
peaceful process was ALWAYS going to be the only way.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
... and bully-boy tactics ...
I think even 'No' voters would admit that the 'bully boy tactics' came from the UK Government, the UK opposition party, and
the UK media. A campaign based on fear and negativity won the day.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
As far back as the Jacobite rebellion (in which one of my ancestors was a leading player, incidentally), the Scots have tended to windbag and bluster
about how much they believe in Scottish 'freedom' and independence, but when push comes to shove they prefer getting pissed on scotch and
whinging morosely about it than actually doing something.
You do actually realise that 'when push came to shove' 45% of the Scottish population voted 'Yes'. That is a huge number of
people who were prepared to take a leap of faith into the relative unknown!
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
It further fails to recognise the ENGLISH talent for presenting themselves as a beacon of democratic reason on the world stage, whilst being a right
bunch of devious, malicious, vindictive and self-serving bastards behind their genteel and self-deprecating front.
The main players of 'devious, malicious, vindictive and self serving bastardry' on this occasion were Westminster tied Scottish
politicians. The UK Govt agreed to the Referendum because they didn't believe there was a hope in hell of a 'Yes' vote. And then
the Westminster elite visibly shat themselves a few days before the vote and ran about like headless chickens.
David Cameron nearly became the man who lost the Union. He had massive assistance from political, media, and financial sector influences from across
the globe... and was so very nearly defeated by an ordinary bloke called Alex.
I'm genuinely gutted that Scotland voted 'No', but I'll move on and get over it. I'm not so sure though that
you'll be able to jettison that massive chip that sits on your shoulder (the likes of which you seek to project on the shoulder of a minority of
Scots).
It's Evolution Baby!
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sdh2903
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 02:57 PM |
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Gloat all you want but I do think you overstepped the mark a little.
And don't forget the oil or the decrepit rigs out in the north sea won't last forever so enjoy the milking while it lasts
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 03:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz...
possibly one of the most bigoted posts I've ever seen
If you think that, then you've got completely the wrong idea about where I'm coming from.
As I think I mentioned on the other Scottish thread, politically, I'm very, VERY anti-nationalist in every shape or form.
I think it's about time we realise that we are living on one, very small planet, and that the whole concept of 'nationhood'
is outmoded and unhelpful.
The main reason I'm anti-Scottish nationalist is that it's a step in the wrong direction. The right direction, for me, would be toward a
federal Europe, and thence a federal global society. That's a long way off, of course, but the current trend for regression into an
ever-increasing number of historic principalities and tribal kingdoms just doesn't make any sense, from where I'm standing.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I think you'll find it was a VERY open conversation in Scotland.
But you surely have to admit that all the mouthing-off, the bully-boy tactics and the shouting-down that happened on the streets as part of the debate
appeared to be on the Nationalist side?
The ‘no’ vote isn’t being referred to as the silent majority for nothing…
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The Irish had their land forcibly taken from them and were mentally, physically, sexually, and fiscally abused during their occupation. I understand
completely why Irish people took up arms and joined the IRA after the Troubles.
Absolutely; I’ve always been pro-Republican in the Irish question, and I always will be.
Ironically, the biggest trouble causers in Northern Ireland have never been the English or the Irish. They’ve been the Ulster Scots.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
As you are well aware, Scotland's situation is completely different. Our complaints surround FAR more subtle acts of oppression. A democratic
peaceful process was ALWAYS going to be the only way.
ALWAYS?
Actually, if you’re talking about a snapshot of the current political situation, then you’re being delusional if you think that there is any
‘oppression’, subtle or otherwise, by the English of the Scots, any more. It’s ancient history, being whipped up in a much-distorted form by a small
minority of politicians with their own agenda. The Union has been equitable, peaceful and mutually respectful since the Georgian era.
If you take your snapshot back in the days of the Highland Clearances, or Butcher Cumberland, or Edward I ‘the Hammer of the Scots’, then all the
abuses that you’ve claimed for the Irish applied to the Scots as well… but that is ancient history.
Get over it.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I think even 'No' voters would admit that the 'bully boy tactics' came from the UK Government…
What, that they refuse to let you continue to share a currency, in an arrangement that would have been technically and legally unworkable? That wasn’t
bullying – it was merely pointing out a few unwelcome home truths.
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
The main players of 'devious, malicious, vindictive and self serving bastardry' on this occasion were Westminster tied Scottish
politicians. The UK Govt agreed to the Referendum because they didn't believe there was a hope in hell of a 'Yes' vote. And then
the Westminster elite visibly shat themselves a few days before the vote and ran about like headless chickens.
David Cameron nearly became the man who lost the Union. He had massive assistance from political, media, and financial sector influences from across
the globe... and was so very nearly defeated by an ordinary bloke called Alex.
You think?
I think that you, the SNP, and the British Labour party have all been bamboozled into thinking that poor, inept David Cameron was ‘nearly the
man who lost the union’, when he and his Party (who, I should stress, I do not support!) have in fact maneuvered themselves in such a way that
they’ve come out of this better than anyone… the SNP have failed, period, and the new agenda for democratic overhaul will cut away the power
that the Labour party used to be able to derive from their Scottish MP’s.
I think you’ve all been sold a dummy in spectacular style!
[Edited on 20/9/14 by Sam_68]
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 03:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903...don't forget the oil or the decrepit rigs out in the north sea won't last forever
No indeed!
We might cut you loose, next time, if you're still daft enough to want to go.
...you may well be nothing but a millstone, by then!
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sdh2903
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 04:03 PM |
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Don't do it scootz. Don't feed him..........
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scootz
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 04:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
But you surely have to admit that all the mouthing-off, the bully-boy tactics and the shouting-down that happened on the streets as part of the debate
appeared to be on the Nationalist side?
No Sam... I live here and saw first hand the impact on the streets. Both sides were equally vocal, and post-referendum it has been the Unionists who
have caused any trouble. The Union Flag waving, burning of Saltires, assaults, and nazi-salutes that we saw in George Square last night were
disgusting.
There has been NOTHING of such similar incidence from a Scottish Nationalist side.
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
ALWAYS?
Actually, if you’re talking about a snapshot of the current political situation, then you’re being delusional if you think that there is any
‘oppression’, subtle or otherwise, by the English of the Scots, any more. It’s ancient history, being whipped up in a much-distorted form by a small
minority of politicians with their own agenda. The Union has been equitable and peaceful since the Georgian era.
If you take your snapshot back in the days of the Highland Clearances, or Butcher Cumberland, or Edward I ‘the Hammer of the Scots’, then all the
abuses that you’ve claimed for the Irish applied to the Scots as well… but that is ancient history.
Get over it.
Nowhere did I say that the 'oppression' I was alluding to came from the English. You have simply assumed that to be the case through your
breathtaking ignorance of the subject. The vast majority of Nationalist Scots have no problem with the English, Welsh or Northern Irish. Their
problem lies with Westminster. You simply don't understand the situation and have bought into the gutter-presses caricature of a Scottish
Nationalist. Shame on you.
Oh, and I am well 'over' any ancient abuses inflicted on the Scots. In fact, I was never 'under' them!
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
What, that they refuse to let you continue to share a currency, in an arrangement that would have been technically and legally unworkable? That wasn’t
bullying – it was merely pointing out a few unwelcome home truths.
Again Sam. you don't know enough about the subject. It wasn't just the currency issue (which was both technically and legally workable!).
Scotland has been bombarded with UK Govt sponsored scare-stories of being shunned by the EU, pensions not being paid, financial collapse, companies
leaving the country, breakdown in disorder, invasion from unknown aggressors, etc, etc, etc. Its been utter nonsense!
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I think that you, the SNP, and the British Labour party have all been bamboozled into thinking that poor, inept David Cameron was ‘nearly the
man who lost the union’, when he and his Party (who, I should stress, I do not support!) have in fact maneuvered themselves in such a way that
they’ve come out of this better than anyone… the SNP have failed, period, and the new agenda for democratic overhaul will cut away the power
that the Labour party used to be able to derive from their Scottish MP’s.
I think you’ve all been sold a dummy in spectacular style!
I would agree that much of the 55% have been sold a spectacular dummy, and that Scottish (and UK!) Labour has been seriously wounded in this campaign.
The Scottish Conservatives however will continue to be a non-entity.
Given that it's only taken less than 24hrs for the (unspecified and frankly ridiculous) 'Pledge' to stumble, then I can only see a
rise in support for the SNP going forward. Most had tipped the 'Yes' vote to fall flat on its face. The SNP however succeeded in raising
support for an independent Scotland from the low 30%'s to the mid 40'%s. They gathered well over 1.5 million votes of support and almost
achieved the apparently 'unachievable aim'. I do not agree that they 'failed'. I would say that they succeeded.
And I also think that the UK has benefitted as this whole process has opened up debate for England, Wales and NI to get further devolved powers, and
for further examination of 'The West Lothian Question'.
Stick to technical inputs concerning car / trike building Sam. You have a lot to offer there and I highly respect those inputs. Your contributions
however to this particular subject is just plain bigoted BS!
It's Evolution Baby!
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scootz
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 04:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Don't do it scootz. Don't feed him..........
I know he's trolling, but there's definitely an underlying bigotry in there - the type he's trying to project onto Nationalist Scots
and that pisses me off.
I wouldn't let him get away with it if we were face-to-face and I won't let him get away with it on this forum!
I'm sick fed up with people linking Scottish Nationalism with anti-English sentiment. It's BS. The only folk who espouse such nonsense
are the tiny minority of brain dead idiots... and all countries in the UK has those idiots (seems England has one of their very own in Sam!).
I, and the vast majority of Nationalist Scots, have huge respect and love for our English, Welsh and NI cousins, and as a Nationalist Scot, I would
still do all I could to support each of them in a given situation if it was morally correct to do so.
It's Evolution Baby!
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sdh2903
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 04:57 PM |
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Bigotry bordering on racism, but he's just fishing for a reaction as he so often does. Let him stew in his own twisted juices.
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daviep
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:08 PM |
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It's very frustrating that such people spoil what could be interesting discussion.
Regards
Davie
“A truly great library contains something in it to offend everyone.”
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Sam_68
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| posted on 20/9/14 at 05:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Bigotry bordering on racism.
How does that work, since by race and heritage I'm Scottish?!
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