JoelP
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 12:40 PM |
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rover engine question
hi. I've been looking for a bellhousing to link a t16 to a type 9 box, apparently caterham do the bellhousing, but not specifically for the t
series engine.
would it be k series that they do, and if so is the bolt pattern the same?
any help would be much appreciated!
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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ned
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 12:49 PM |
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a silly assumption but I'm guessing as I've not come across a caterham with that engine and its a t as opposed to a k series/type engine
it'd be different. try asking robinhood/lolocost as they've used the t16 (the turbo one isn't it?)to the type9 IIRC.
cheers,
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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mackie
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 12:59 PM |
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It seems entirely possible that the T and K series engines have the same bolt pattern but I know not for sure.
Might be worth asking people on
http://forums.mg-rover.org/
There's almost certainly someone on there who can answer your question.
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 01:17 PM |
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Yip, as said above, Robinhood have used the T-series with a Ford gearbox although I think it was the MT75 not the type 9. These might be the same
pattern though I don't know.
I use the T-series ever day and like it very much but IMHO it is too heavy for the Locost and has that flaming annoying cyl head oil leak. I've
had an 800 Vitesse for 5 years and even repaired the head leak (properly) myself but it was back in 12 months.
Come on, join the Rover V8 brigade, you know you want to!!
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 02:12 PM |
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"...Come on, join the Rover V8 brigade, you know you want to!! "
Can't argue with that
ATB
Simon
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ijohnston99
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 04:22 PM |
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Joel,
Is the T not essentially an O series with a 16v head? The O series has the same gearbox mounts as the B series and type 9 bellhouses are readily
available from MG and Minor suppliers.
Hi-gear I think were the first to offer kits, check out the MG websites.
Good luck,
Ian
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JoelP
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 07:29 PM |
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cheers all.
IAN! thats where i got pointed towards caterham, only reply in a week, still appreciated (must remember to go back and say thanks anyway...!)
i hear y'all about the weight, but its a super cheap 250bhp and more to the point, i already have one!!! running it at say 11psi should be
reliable and get most of the 250 by itself! de cat and a good air filter will help the cause no end too!
anyway, im off to look for a moggy specialist. anyone suggest a company or a good keyword to google for?!
thanks again all.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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ijohnston99
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 07:37 PM |
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Joel,
I have a 1976 MGB gearbox with overdrive. I have heard that they can cope with V8 power. Maybe thats a road for you to go down! (Come and get it!)
Ian
Edited to add Roger Parkers email address. He's converted nearly every Rover engine to RWD!
[Edited on 26/1/04 by ijohnston99]
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 08:44 PM |
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Joel,
I'm running my Vitesse with variable boost using the bleed valve approach. You'll be lucky to get 250BHP without increasing fuel regulator
pressure but 220-230BHP is easily achievable. Mine is a Vitesse (not Vitesse sport) and being a 1993 car it has the harder pistons (Mahle) rather than
the chocolate pistons which later cars were fitted with. Check which pistons you have in yours and if they are the newer ones then limit boost to
about 11Psi which will give around 215BHP. If you have the Mahle pistons then you can go up to the 14PSI limit at which fuel pressure is insufficient
and the ECU will cut out the engine. The pistons can take up to about 280BHP but you need to modify the ECU to remove the safety cutout to achieve
that. I've run mine up to about 13PSI and it is certainly rapid but traction is a real pain out of slow corners and roundabouts where you have
to feather the throttle just to get moving due to excessive torque. You will be aware how torquey this engine is and I would advise you to get a very
good uprated gearbox to handle it if you do go with the transplant. The gearbox on the T-series has proven not to be up to the job and certainly
doesn't like tuned T-series's. Apparently Sherpa and Princess gearboxes can be fitted but I don't know how strong they are. I think
a Rover SD1 2000 is also compatible.
Yes the T-series is basically a big iron block O-series engine with a 16V head. The O-series had a bigger turbo but was less efficient. Some people
say the O-series was a better engine but it also had lots of problems of its own.
I have to be honest and say that I seriously considered building a T-series into my Locost but was put off by the weight which I believe is over
330lbs and the dimensions of the engine. For that weight and size I can have a Rover V8 and it only costs half as much. With the money you save you
can get some performance parts to bring power up to 200BHP and with even more torque than the T-series, not to mention the glorious V8 burble!!
Good luck with the project, I'll be interested to see how you get on.
Craig.
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andyps
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 10:43 PM |
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Agree with all that Craig says about the engine - except I haven't upgraded the boost on mine. For the original application it is well worth
getting the torsen diff out of the vitesse sport - that gives amazing traction.
if using the T series, make sure you use the klinger type head gasket - it is vastly better than the standard ones and only a couple of quid more -
well worth it if the head is off for any reason.
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/1/04 at 10:54 PM |
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Andy,
I used the klinger gasket from Rover and had the head skimmed professionally and I rebuilt the engine with scrupulous attention to detail and
cleanliness, especially with the block and head mating faces but I still have another oil leak only 12 months after the rebuild. I know of a few other
owners who have had the same experience. I also got brand new head bolts and torqued them down properly.
I think the only true solution would be to machine the block and head to accept a metal sealing ring.
Cheers,
Craig.
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 09:20 AM |
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would you believe i posted a question on the rover forum and got sent back here! we got described as a nice bunch of chaps!!!!
someone suggested that an SD1 2 litre box might go straight on the t16. Any ideas anyone?
thanks...
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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craig1410
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 01:06 PM |
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Joel,
read my last but one posting (yes I know it was a bit long winded...)
I said:
quote:
Apparently Sherpa and Princess gearboxes can be fitted but I don't know how strong they are. I think a Rover SD1 2000 is also compatible
All you need now is a Rover SD1 2000, Austin Princess or Sherpa Van...
Cheers,
Craig.
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timf
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 01:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
All you need now is a Rover SD1 2000, Austin Princess or Sherpa Van...
Cheers,
Craig.
princesses were fwd
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 02:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Joel,
read my last but one posting (yes I know it was a bit long winded...)
Cheers,
Craig.
ah yes, that would be the blindness again...
off to ebay i go...
thanks again!
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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andyps
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 07:37 PM |
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I think the SD1 2000 box may fit, but it was a relatively low power engine so don't know how strong it is.
I put a klinger gasket on my T16 last May, it had a very small seep straight away but I think that was due to a scoring mark left by the skimming
process. So far it hasn't got any worse - but it is only 9 months old so I will wait and see (or change the car soon!!)
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 07:49 PM |
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balls, im all indecisive now... got me thinking about weights, sizes and damn gearboxes
but what the hell do i do with the vitesse if i dont cut it up and use the engine? its an m plate vitesse sport, needs a new 17 inch wheel and os rear
suspension. trouble is the cars only worth 500 tops really.
how the hell can the 3500 v8 weigh less than a 2 litre 4 pot? its madness. what were they thinking of!! aluminium block comes floating thru the
cobwebs, is this true?!
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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andyps
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 09:12 PM |
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Joel - you are right about the weight - V8 has an aluminium block, T16 cast iron.
The T16 is a great engine in itself, lots of torque and apparently unburstable if the boost is kept reasonable.
You could break the vitesse - the gearbox from a sport is worth about £150 on its own provided it really is the sport box. I have seen a few full
interiors going for about £100. Engine probably worth a few quid too. I am seriously thinking of breaking mine and selling the parts when I eventually
get around to replacing it as it will probably be worth more that way than whole.
Let me know if you do break it though, there might be a few bits I want.
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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Stu16v
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
how the hell can the 3500 v8 weigh less than a 2 litre 4 pot? its madness. what were they thinking of!! aluminium block comes floating thru the
cobwebs, is this true?!
Mmmm. The V8 may weigh less when it is sat, bare, on the bench, but I have yet to of personally see one that has been lighter than a four pot, when
installed in a car. This is using Westfields as an example, a Seight is the heaviest of the Westfield range. The extra oil, water, exhausts, bigger
radiator, gearbox, etc soon add up to make a sizeable difference. Not knocking V8's or the owners choice to fit one, it's just that the
weight arguement doesnt gel for me......
[Edited on 27/1/04 by Stu16v]
Dont just build it.....make it!
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craig1410
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 10:02 PM |
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Joel,
Yes as Andy says the V8 is lighter. Figures I have are about 318lbs all up with ancillaries and fluids. The T-series is 330lbs bare, again going by
internet figures. I actually manhandled my V8 on the back of my trailer when cleaning it down. I was fairly easily able to tip it up and slide it
around. I then installed the engine myself into my awaiting chassis in about 20 minutes using my children's swing and a chain block. It actually
"felt" lighter to handle than A-series mini engines which I used to work on. I know it isn't lighter than an a-series but as it is
physically bigger is somehow seems lighter than it is (less dense I suppose). Obviously you would need to add the LT77 gearbox to it to compare it
with the Mini which would alter the perception somewhat.
As for breaking prices, there is a guy in Aberdeen (Barrem Motors) who specialises in Rover breaking and he seems to sell second hand Vitesse engines
for £400-£450. I'm not sure if this includes the gearbox or ancillaries but I'd expect it does. You're right about the value of the
Vitesse (sadly) and you can get a 2nd hand "V" reg 1999 Vitesse fastback with 40k miles on it for £2380 according to Parkers guide. The
saloon is a bit dearer at around £3710 for some reason.
My advice, being an advocate of both engines, would be to stick to a well troden path and of the two, the V8 path seems more well troden! Quite a few
guys on the forum here are building V8 cars. Try to sell off your Vitesse (whole or in bits) and use the money to get a V8 engine and 'box. I
got my engine for £175 and my gearbox for £140. This includes all ancillaries and was a runner before I personally helped to strip it out of the SD1
donor. You would need a wider chassis such as the McSorely 7+4".
Give it some serious thought as the turbo characteristics may not be ideal in a lightweight locost. The V8 will be a big enough handful without the
power being non-linear like on the turbo engine.
HTH,
Craig.
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craig1410
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 10:09 PM |
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Stu,
Which other engines do Westfield supply?
The point we are making here is that the T-series is heavy, not that the V8 is light! The V8 is certainly lighter than a 2 Litre Pinto but you
can't compare it with the likes of a K-series 1.8 as these are also alloy block engines and only 4 pots. I think the K-series is around
100Kg's (220lbs) IIRC.
Cheers,
Craig.
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 10:23 PM |
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cheers for the input guys.
i think i'm gonna finish it with the pinto for now, keep the vitesse to use in a rear engined car, and investigate the size of the v8 and see if
it will fit in my chassis later. mine is a bit bigger than book in some ways but the engine is a long way back, middle of the bellhousing is level
with the clutch mount, and has some bars added in unfortunate places!
then again, i wanna do a bec sometime. i guess the v8 would be nice though!
ah decisions decisions...
got the pinto sat in it today anyway, i hope its the final time of taking it in and out cos im sick of doing it, gonna start wiring it tomorrow...
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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craig1410
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 10:26 PM |
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Joel,
Don't get dragged down by all this debate, finish it with the Pinto sounds good. It's not a bad old engine although it is heavier than the
V8...
Timf,
Here is the website that recommended the Princess gearbox to fit the T-series although maybe they only meant to use the bellhousing... It's a
bit of a messy discussion so read it for yourself and see what you make of it:
http://www.spagweb.com/v8mini/diary/2000_11.htm
These guys seem hell bent on getting V8 engines to fit in Mini's which has certainly been done with dramatic results...
Cheers,
Craig.
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JoelP
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 10:38 PM |
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on that thread they imply that o/m/t are all the same box pattern, and that the princess box is quite reliable.
quote:
but if you want an easy option then the m/t 16 on a princess gearbox should take an afternoon! - but it will be a little heavy
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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andyps
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 09:01 PM |
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Just for the info - an A series Mini engine/box weighs 330 lbs fully fitted. Bloody heavy when it falls off a trolley jack and you try to catch it as
I did on Sunday!
I also can't figure why a saloon rover 800 is worse more than a hatch.
[Edited on 28/1/04 by andyps]
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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