daniel mason
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:07 PM |
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what welder for a complete novice?
if i manage to sell my car,i will be buying a road registered kit project to tinker with. what sort of welder would you guys recommend tgo buy? mainly
for welding brackets,mounts to chassis and welding exhausts etc? and how do welders differ? i am a complete novice but want to learn.
should i be looking at tig,mig,arch,stick, ac/dc, 110v/230v, what should i be after?
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mark chandler
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:18 PM |
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Mig, 150 amps, get the best quality you can afford, for a budget clarke 150te is a good start.
Use clean metal and do not leave it in a damp garage as the wire will rust on the spool, if you do not have room inside for the welder keep the wire
reel in the warm.
Practice makes perfect, get a light sensitive mask so you can support your welding hand as this makes it much easier.
Mig does splatter so gloves and always keep you body covered, very easy to stick something together wearing a tee shirt or shorts, then suffer burns
later on.... just from the arc, like sun burn we have all done it.
Little bottles are IMHO a waste of money, also budget for a regulator and buy a big bottle and helmet so allow £150 above the cost of the welder.
Regards Mark
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The Venom Project
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:18 PM |
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I never did any welding before getting a TIG, I understand MIG is pretty easy, but TIG leaves a lovely finish with a bit of practise, and if you buy
the AC/DC version you can weld anything.
I have my eyes on this TIG when im flush again, as I don't need an AC Tig for alloy.
http://www.sipuk.co.uk/tools/info_SIP05266.html
Try and stick to a decent brand. I bought a cheap chinese one, when it was working it was great, but nobody wanted to repair it when it broke.
R-WELD are a UK importer of chinese Tig's, but at least they offer a 2 year warranty and support.
It's not that i'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.....
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daniel mason
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:26 PM |
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so can an ac/dc tig weld everything a mig can + more? or is it different welders for different jobs
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flibble
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:35 PM |
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Yes, tig can do MIG+more but I'd certainly want to start with a mig (clarke 150 as mentioned above), there's a world of difference in
skill needed (or maybe I'm just ham fisted! )
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mark chandler
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:37 PM |
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Tig is more expensive to use, harder to do and difficult from below.
It is however more satisfying but will take a lot of practice to get pretty welds.
If you are just sticking on a few bits and bob's then MIG wins, if you wanted to scratch build a car you will get plenty of TIG practice and
watch things improve as you go.
The last time I used my MIG was years ago because I needed to reach into a tight spot and could not get both hands to the work, so for me TIG, but my
skills have dropped off with lack of practice.
For TIG you need to feed the wire in with one hand and apply the heat with the other, then if doing ali you also really need a foot control, this
means you have to plan your work.
Regards Mark
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PSpirine
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:37 PM |
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there's a welder for sale in the For Sale section, arguably the best MIG welder to get started with..
I wouldn't start off with TIG - yes it's arguably a better skill to have, but I know TIG welders who will still MIG weld a whole bunch of
stuff because it's easier/quicker and in most cases isn't any worse.
With TIG you can achieve those very nice "stacked pennies" welds, and if it's AC/DC you can weld aluminium with it.
Keep in mind you can still weld aluminium and stainless with the MIG, it's just not as neat.
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franky
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:38 PM |
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The r-techs are re-built in the uk and have proven to match other welders costing ££££'s more.
With a ac/dc tig you can weld anything, it's just harder to learn. Would it not be worth keeping your car?
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DIY Si
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:44 PM |
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Whilst I've never TIG'd, I'm told it's harder than MIG. And that can take a while and lots of practice to learn. Whilst
welding 16 SWG stuff together is simple enough and easy to pick up, different thickness's and so forth is harder.
One other option is what I've done recently. I was scouring Ebay for a low end industrial welder, as opposed to a good DIY welder, and managed
to get a Migatronic Automig 180 MXE for £270. Whilst it is a big old lump, it'll go on forever and is supposed to do 20-180 amps! It does weigh
50 kgs though, so moving it about is fiddly.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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loggyboy
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:45 PM |
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I picked up my Clarke 90EN for uder £50 2nd hand. More than adequate for the basics, however I am beginning to think my welding would be alot neater
if I had a 150+ amp, but if your not after artistic merit, just keep an eye out for a cheap decent brand mig. Disposable bottles may not be the best
£for£ way of welding, but if your only doing odd jobs, then they work just fine and can last for plenty of jobs.
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imp paul
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 10:52 PM |
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if you can stretch the penny's a techarc portamig 211 is the bomb.and it comes with 2 years warranty and 5 years on the transformers i need say
no more. you get what you pay for as i have just got 1 its a 235 and its mint  better spec than a good lincon and more warranty hope this helps dan
linky http://www.weldequip.com/portamig-mig-welders.htm
[Edited on 3/3/12 by imp paul]
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daniel mason
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 11:08 PM |
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i can afford to keep my car,but not if i move house this year(which i want to) a £12k+ toy is a lot when you have 2 other cars and a big mortgage. and
im only just turned 30 so getting more sensible!
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imp paul
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 11:15 PM |
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hay up dan love your last build mate. very nice as for the welder mate. i fell in to the pit of poo last time i got 1. and just sold it sip 150 top
mig god a nightmare lol now have a portamig its the way forward to get good welds and most of all it works lol im the same as you mate house 3 cars
and on my own its hard some times good luck on getting a good mig pal
cheers paul
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snakebelly
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 11:24 PM |
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Another vote for a gas mug as your first machine, also can't say enough good things about Rtech welding, I have both a mug and an ac/dc tug from
them and both have been excellent machines and very reasonably priced and there after sales service is excellent
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Slimy38
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| posted on 3/3/12 at 11:36 PM |
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When I was getting into kit car building, I took a college course on welding. We had the option of MIG, stick and TIG. We all did one module of MIG,
then we went on separate options for the second module. I stuck with MIG and learned how to weld round tubes and upside down (that's fun!),
others tried stick or TIG. Out of half a dozen people trying TIG, none of them managed to get more than an inch of weld in the entire term of welding.
To me it seemed like too much hassle despite it being the dogs danglies of welding. I seem to remember a couple actually switched to stick welding
just to get the certificate at the end.
With regards to kit, I went for a 150 amp MIG, but got a proper power socket fitted into the garage. It's worked perfectly fine for all my
welding needs. You have to get a light sensitive mask though, so much easier than a fixed one. And a cap on your head with the peak covering the back
of your neck, you'd be amazed how many sparks go straight over your head and aim for your collar!!
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orton1966
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 07:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by orton1966
quote:
Originally posted by imp paul
if you can stretch the penny's a techarc portamig 211 is the bomb.and it comes with 2 years warranty and 5 years on the transformers i need say
no more. you get what you pay for as i have just got 1 its a 235 and its mint better spec than a good lincon and more warranty hope this helps dan
linky http://www.weldequip.com/portamig-mig-welders.htm
[Edited on 3/3/12 by imp paul]
There are a couple of companies that do this machine, I got mine from mig tig arc similar price and yes i'd agree very good value and so much
easier to use and learn on than cheaper machines. Main difference is the wire feed, decent machine equals smooth consistent wire feed, equals smooth
consistent welds!
I’d agree with the other post about better to buy a better machine second hand than a cheap machine new. I’ve started using this philosophy for most
of my workshop kit, so now got a 2ft box and pan sheet metal bender for the price of a 6 inc vice held one, even old and partly-worn industrial kit
will do a better job, more consistently and last longer than modern new pig-metal made stuff
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The Venom Project
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 07:56 AM |
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Well in my opinion tig is easiest, I do IT for a living so don't have any prior welding knowledge, I tried MIG after Tig. I prefer Tig, much
neater, and you can weld everything mate. MIG cannot weld alloy, and on a kit car its more essential.
Try and see if you can have a go with both.
It's not that i'm lazy, it's that I just don't care.....
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T66
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 08:12 AM |
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Few years back I did a complete body off restore of a S2 Land Rover, lots of chassis repairs - all done with a 100a Clarke. It just managed on the
heavier chassis section.
And my rotten Lada Niva was all done with a SiP 130.
If its just bracketing and light sheet , the Clarke 130 will manage ok.
The Clarke 150 would be a good choice.
Ps - I'm self taught daniel , and now can manage most things.
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907
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 09:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
When I was getting into kit car building, I took a college course on welding. We had the option of MIG, stick and TIG.
We all did one module of MIG, then we went on separate options for the second module. I stuck with MIG.
Out of half a dozen people trying TIG, none of them managed to get more than an inch of weld in the entire term of welding.
( I have taken the liberty of editing the above post so that I can comment on just one aspect. )
Hi All.
The question has to be asked; What was the instructor doing while these people were having their first attempt at TIG?
I would have thought that, on a one to one basis, it should be possible to get a neat (ish) 1" bead of weld from the pupil
in the first 20 minutes or so.
TIG is a slow process, and when learning this is an advantage as it gives the pupil time to see and comprehend what's going on.
Time also for the instructor (perched parrot fashion above the pupils shoulder) to offer advice.
Just my 2p
Paul G
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fazerruss
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 09:22 AM |
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quote:
MIG cannot weld alloy
Not true, you can weld ally with mig. You could either fit a spool gun or fit a teflon liner in existing lead and then all you need is a roll of ally
wire and pure argon gas.
"if assholes could fly this place would be an airport"
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Slimy38
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 09:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 907
The question has to be asked; What was the instructor doing while these people were having their first attempt at TIG?
To be fair, the instructor wasn't the best. He'd demonstrate, then stand back to allow the person to try, then as soon as they made a
mistake he'd jump in and do it for them rather than verbally explaining what is going wrong. I don't fully understand the process, but
they all seemed to have trouble keeping the tip out of the weld pool, and they spent more time cleaning them up than using them? Is that what happens
with TIG? A similar 'mishap' with MIG (letting the shroud touch the metal or pool) seemed a lot less catastrophic.
The main reason I went to do a course first was that we would have access to the dogs danglies of welding kit. Sure they were a bit worn, but they
were infinitely controllable and really powerful so it made welding as easy as it could get. But even with top of the range TIG units, they just
couldn't get things moving and seemed to waste many sessions. Whereas MIG and stick we were welding structurally sound joints in a matter of
minutes, and pretty good looking welds in a few hours.
That's the point I was trying to get across, I have no doubt EVENTUALLY they would have picked up TIG, but MIG is just so much quicker to get a
grasp of that for a novice I couldn't really recommend it any other way.
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imp paul
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 10:13 AM |
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i got my self a tig and omg its soooo hard to use lol. stick with the mig to begin i just keep trying a bit at a time but cost is very high compared
to the mig
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tony-devon
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 10:59 AM |
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MIG will do all that you want, ok so yes a good TIG weld is very pretty, but it takes a lot of practice and patience to get to that stage
its worth keeping your eyes open round local garages etc
I was passing one such place a couple of years back and there was a welder sat outside by the bin/skips
went and asked if they were ditching it and was it repairable
the answer was yes and dont know, they said it was an old and big unit, they wanted a smaller more modern plant, saw a glimpse of a crap unit with
hardwired torch etc
so this huge thing went in the boot of my car, with the seats down.
and off home I trundle with a Cebora 190 with 2 euro torches
now years later, that welder is still working well, its never ever cut out on me, despite some very long runs of weld that I did on a door.
I run a silicone coated wire from ESAB, its hardly gives much spatter, and doesnt rust. it also doesnt seem to wear or clog up the liner like copper
coated stuff does
if your buying one, then buy the bigest and best you can afford, its easy to turn a big plant down, but theres bugger all you can do when your at max
and cant turn it up, also means that theduty cycle will go down and you probably will be cutting out
heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it
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907
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 11:46 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Slimy38
quote:
Originally posted by 907
The question has to be asked; What was the instructor doing while these people were having their first attempt at TIG?
To be fair, the instructor wasn't the best. He'd demonstrate, then stand back to allow the person to try, then as soon as they made a
mistake he'd jump in and do it for them rather than verbally explaining what is going wrong. I don't fully understand the process, but
they all seemed to have trouble keeping the tip out of the weld pool, and they spent more time cleaning them up than using them? Is that what happens
with TIG? A similar 'mishap' with MIG (letting the shroud touch the metal or pool) seemed a lot less catastrophic.
The main reason I went to do a course first was that we would have access to the dogs danglies of welding kit. Sure they were a bit worn, but they
were infinitely controllable and really powerful so it made welding as easy as it could get. But even with top of the range TIG units, they just
couldn't get things moving and seemed to waste many sessions. Whereas MIG and stick we were welding structurally sound joints in a matter of
minutes, and pretty good looking welds in a few hours.
That's the point I was trying to get across, I have no doubt EVENTUALLY they would have picked up TIG, but MIG is just so much quicker to get a
grasp of that for a novice I couldn't really recommend it any other way.
I was making a fuel tank at the time when a bloke called into the workshop.
He had never done any sort of welding before but seemed interested in what I was doing so I said, "would you like a go".
Now I think we will all agree that aluminium is a difficult metal to weld with TIG as it doesn't exhibit any color change.
I got a bit of scrap sheet and gave him my auto hat and he watched me put down a couple of 3" runs. As I did it I described what I was doing,
and why.
We swapped places and I placed the torch in his hand at the correct angle so he could see, with the tungsten set so the ceramic touched the plate
before the tungsten would dip in the pool. I placed a thick glove on the sheet for him to rest his wrist on so his hand would remain steady.
1st go. He formed a pool, added rod, but kept the rod too close and a blob melted off and stuck to the sheet.
We stopped and had a chat about it, and I described again how to bring the rod away (but still within the argon).
2nd go. He got a pool going and I called "dip dip dip" and "move slower" or "faster" as necessary, aaaaaand
stop.
The pic below shows the result. I cut it out and drilled a hole in it, and it hangs on a nail in the workshop.
I think he has soldered wires before but this was his first ever weld.
Cheers,
Paul G
 
1st ever attempt at welding
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trextr7monkey
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| posted on 4/3/12 at 01:26 PM |
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HI Dan,
another vote for Mig andto buy the biggest your garage electric supply will take.
I 've had various welders - Sip Clarke etc some gasless and others with little canisters or CO2, while I was always happy with the strength of
welds they were never what you would describe as beautiful.
I took a night class in arc welding when I was a student and still use the ramps I made then but can honestly say that using a decent machine ours
(well it is at work so not technically mine!!!) is a cebora with argon mix in a massive cylinder and it is the way to make things look beautiful.
The difference just from using a decent welder made me sell the other things as they were so much hassle it wasn't worth it. If you are up near
Carlisle some time youare welcome to pop in and have a bash, bring some of your bits up if you want,
atb
Mike
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14016102@N00/ (cut and paste this dodgey link)
Our most recent pics are here:
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/trextr7monkey/
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