40inches
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 09:45 AM |
|
|
Megasquirt rolling road setup?
The intention was to take it to Baileys Performance, but there appears to be a Megasquirt specialist at Donnington. A hell of a lot nearer.
Anyone used them? http://www.ms2tuning.com/
[Edited on 24-2-15 by 40inches]
|
|
|
|
|
wombat
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 12:17 PM |
|
|
Do you realise that's lincs not the circuit?
|
|
|
40inches
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:04 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by wombat
Do you realise that's lincs not the circuit?
I do now!  70 miles away from home as against 91 miles to Baileys  Closer, but about the same 2hr travelling time.
|
|
|
40inches
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:13 PM |
|
|
The web site says that they will come to you!!! Wonder what that would cost?
|
|
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:22 PM |
|
|
They are a mobile mappers i think, no rolling road.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
40inches
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:33 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
They are a mobile mappers i think, no rolling road.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
Looks like you are still favourite then 
|
|
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:45 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
They are a mobile mappers i think, no rolling road.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
Looks like you are still favourite then
Good  , thanks, to be fair its is possible to map a car on the road (fuelling only) i used to do it that way before i bought the dyno, but it is
hard to optimize the ignition.
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
r1_pete
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:52 PM |
|
|
quote:
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
No don't I need to get the Jag down to you too, and just can't find the garage time with the freezing weather and work to finish the
install...
 
EFI Trial Fit 2
[Edited on 24/2/15 by r1_pete]
|
|
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 02:59 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by r1_pete
quote:
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
No don't I need to get the Jag down to you too, and just can't find the garage time with the freezing weather and work to finish the
install...
EFI Trial Fit 2
[Edited on 24/2/15 by r1_pete]
I would be very interested in how your ITB setup works, think i have said before we tune afew old Jags, did a 3.8 and a v12 recently.
The V12 on six weber 45s , microsquirt (ignition only) and MSD made 381BHP and 416lb/ft!!! My engine builder and i nearly fell over.
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
40inches
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 03:12 PM |
|
|
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
Noooooo! Well, not until you have done mine
|
|
|
Jenko
|
| posted on 24/2/15 at 05:16 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
They are a mobile mappers i think, no rolling road.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
Looks like you are still favourite then
Good , thanks, to be fair its is possible to map a car on the road (fuelling only) i used to do it that way before i bought the dyno, but it is
hard to optimize the ignition.
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
I wrote an article a few years (for the westfield mag) back with Troy from Northampton Motorsport about road tuning Vs Rolling road. It was basically
a challenge, I spent a year or so fine tuning ignition and fuel maps, and reckoned it was pretty good. Troy reckoned he could better it....Guess
what...He was right :-)
Anyone wants a copy, PM me your email.
[Edited on 24/2/15 by Jenko]
MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/
|
|
|
ashg
|
| posted on 25/2/15 at 03:43 AM |
|
|
you can do ignition timing and fueling on the road but you need a good set of det cans and mslog viewer. it will be a good map but wont get that
last few horses out.
what you cant do on the open road is accurately and repeatably measure if the change you made to ignition or fuel added or reduced power once you get
to a 90-95% decent map.
with det cans you are basically just tuning trying to keep the engine away from detonation and using feel in the seat for power measurement.
A good example. Your peak torque at 3500rpm may be made at 25btdc but you may not experience detonation until 31btdc. on a rr you can find that by
taking measurements which show at what ignition advance torque peaks at and falls off at. With det cans on the road you basically take it up to the
point of detonation then wind it back a couple of deg to be safe, the negative to doing that is that the peak power is down at 25btdc but you may end
up at 27-28 which is just of peak!
more and more these days through good engine design peak performance is achieved well away from the detonation zone, so if you want every little bit
of performance out of that engine your gonna need a RR, on the other side of the coin if your happy with 90-95% with great drive-ability then road
tuning can be successful
i would say a good respected on road tuner dont pay more than £200ish. for a well respected tuner with a RR expect to pay £300+
a good tuner not only knows how to punch numbers into a pc until they get maximum oooompth they also understand mechanics and the physics of internal
combustion and engine design. The relationship between gas flow, peak cylinder pressure, rod/piston ratio, inlet/exhaust design, flame front,
cylinder gas scavenge, mechanical timing, fuel delivery/atomization, and stoic ratios are just a few of the concepts you need to get working together
in your head before you can be a really good tuner. After learning that foundation, years of experience comes into play.
properly understanding all of that including the math needs a good bit of intelligence. chances are if you meet a great tuner that fully understands
all of that and can produce great results means one of two things. They either already work for a professional race team or they undervalue
themselves and are under charging as they could be earning a lot more money using their brain for a higher paying career.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
|
|
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 25/2/15 at 10:29 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by ashg
more and more these days through good engine design peak performance is achieved well away from the detonation zone, so if you want every little bit
of performance out of that engine your gonna need a RR, on the other side of the coin if your happy with 90-95% with great drive-ability then road
tuning can be successful
i would say a good respected on road tuner dont pay more than £200ish. for a well respected tuner with a RR expect to pay £300+
a good tuner not only knows how to punch numbers into a pc until they get maximum oooompth they also understand mechanics and the physics of internal
combustion and engine design. The relationship between gas flow, peak cylinder pressure, rod/piston ratio, inlet/exhaust design, flame front,
cylinder gas scavenge, mechanical timing, fuel delivery/atomization, and stoic ratios are just a few of the concepts you need to get working together
in your head before you can be a really good tuner. After learning that foundation, years of experience comes into play.
properly understanding all of that including the math needs a good bit of intelligence. chances are if you meet a great tuner that fully understands
all of that and can produce great results means one of two things. They either already work for a professional race team or they undervalue
themselves and are under charging as they could be earning a lot more money using their brain for a higher paying career.
I knew i was cheap at £250/day, which is about half what i used to earn as an engineer for an automation company in the oil and gas industry.
I fully agree with your point regarding an understanding of what is actually going on within an engine, its not just a case of tweaking afew numbers
on the laptop, we have seen some stunning examples of poor tuning over the years, recently an Omex ECU mapped by a well known tuner with 31deg of
timing at idle on a vauxhall 16v, i can only assume was an attempt to bring the idle up, anyone with basic knowledge of an engine knows this is far
too much timing.
I dont really agree with the maximum advance to make it knock approach, an engine like a NA zetec will take over 36deg without knocking but will make
maximum power 28-30. This i why i think you cant map the ignition curve on the road, but you can just about map the fuelling given enough time.
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
Oddified
|
| posted on 25/2/15 at 12:22 PM |
|
|
Fueling isn't that hard to do on the road, wide band/data logging etc and time.
Ignition isn't as easy, but on the other hand it's not hard to find or make an ignition map that is 90% in the ball park straight off for
most engines with some common sense. Engine feel and sound, back side dyno and det cans for fine tuning. The last 5 or 10% isn't really feasible
but then while the last fraction can be found on the rolling it's also effected by the tank of fuel and atmospheric conditions on the day so the
last 'bit' isn't a constant any way. On the rolling road an engine might be best with say 26.2 btdc/4250rpm at wot, 6 months later
with different weather and fuel...
After saying all that, unless it's part of the fun to someone learning something new and a personal challenge, the majority would be better off
using a good rolling road. Note the word 'good', plenty have no idea.
Ian
|
|
|
ashg
|
| posted on 25/2/15 at 01:11 PM |
|
|
the way i like to say it is........ There are many rolling roads, not all of them good.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
|
|
|
jeffw
|
| posted on 25/2/15 at 02:41 PM |
|
|
there are many operators of rolling roads, some are better than others !
|
|
|
baz-R
|
| posted on 10/3/15 at 10:04 PM |
|
|
my own MS road tune was 159bhp (all my own settings) an hour rolling road time with a pro gave me 165.1bhp we could add 9 degrees to the full advance
with no pinking or det just power loss. the guy did it just to prove his point that in reality max power is not made near to det point.
|
|
|
blakep82
|
| posted on 10/3/15 at 10:17 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
I would be interested in knowing what they would have charged, i think i'm too cheap and plan to increase what i charge soon.
Noooooo! Well, not until you have done mine
And mine! I'm getting there, wiring at the moment, still
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
|
|
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 11/3/15 at 08:46 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by baz-R
my own MS road tune was 159bhp (all my own settings) an hour rolling road time with a pro gave me 165.1bhp we could add 9 degrees to the full advance
with no pinking or det just power loss. the guy did it just to prove his point that in reality max power is not made near to det point.
I couldn't agree more. This is why the "listen for det, then retard abit" is the wrong way to do it.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
BaileyPerformance
|
| posted on 11/3/15 at 09:04 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
And mine! I'm getting there, wiring at the moment, still
Don't panic! will do yours for what we agreed :-)
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
Oddified
|
| posted on 11/3/15 at 09:54 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
quote:
Originally posted by baz-R
my own MS road tune was 159bhp (all my own settings) an hour rolling road time with a pro gave me 165.1bhp we could add 9 degrees to the full advance
with no pinking or det just power loss. the guy did it just to prove his point that in reality max power is not made near to det point.
I couldn't agree more. This is why the "listen for det, then retard abit" is the wrong way to do it.
www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
www.baileyperformance.co.uk
True but it all depends on the engine (age/design has a big impact) and how much it's being pushed. Throw some boost into the equation, less
than ideal intake temps and the best ignition timing for power isn't that far below det. To much boost, to much compression, high air temps and
det is the limiting factor on ignition timing. The large gap between optimum timing and det is normally only on modern engines, normally aspirated and
unstressed (not being pushed to the limit).
Ian
|
|
|
