Oops
. What does it cost and who do i chat to?? 
Hi all,
Did some revision changes to my plans to make the build easier and cheaper.
So now I'm selling them at 350U$ dollars if anynone is interested.
Visit http://sites.google.com/site/xocars/ for info or ccontact me xosportscars@gmail.com
dude write a book...or do a web site with instructions and photo's you pay membership to use and download plans
cos if you don't then someone else will, with your hard work...
Awsome..... worth a read....
(its worth noting that if you are selling commercial products or services on this site you do have to pay for the right to do so!)
quote:
Mr Whippy posted on 6/3/09 at 12:43 PM dude write a book...or do a web site with instructions and photo's you pay membership to use and download plans cos if you don't then someone else will, with your hard work...
quote:
tegwin posted on 6/3/09 at 12:44 PM Awsome..... worth a read.... (its worth noting that if you are selling commercial products or services on this site you do have to pay for the right to do so!)
. What does it cost and who do i chat to??
quote:
Oops
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
So now I'm selling them at 350U$ dollars if anynone is interested.
holy crap wot happend to the bonnet on ur avatar
Any plans over £40- 50 will not sell.
Locost plans cost the price of a book, and you get a read, a very general read I know, but a read non the less.
The days of Formula 27, or Evolution 7, plans at £80 are over.
For it to be attractive to UK buyers (as the majority of this forum are) You are going to first need to offer one, perhaps at cost to a UK builder -
and get it through SVA successfully. I think more people would then go for it...
James
Sorry but thats way too little for all the effort and costs to have made it work. Anyone thats going to try there own build will shortly realize
something like this is an easier way out.
James, u shud know how much effort it took.
quote:
designer
Any plans over £40- 50 will not sell. Locost plans cost the price of a book, and you get a read, a very general read I know, but a read non the less. The days of Formula 27, or Evolution 7, plans at £80 are over.
If the price is right people will buy plans just to see them. I would.
Most people who bought the Locost books did not build.
I really like the concept but unless I’m missing something I think your site needs some better pictures, especially showing some of the finer build
detail, suspension etc.
I think this is especially important, at what many have already commented, is a premium price. From my own prospective I would pay the kind of money
your asking if I knew the following:
The spaceframe was exceptionally well designed with good 3 dimensional triangulation.
The underlying design criteria behind the suspension and steering geometry i.e as a designer what have you prioritised controlling, scrub, camber
change etc.?
More information about engine options, Audi engines, which ones, the transverse or the in-line versions?
Estimated completed weight and build cost.
Source of other major build components i.e. uprights front and rear.
I’m certainly not trying to knock what you’ve done and I certainly think there is a market for a well thought out and marketed set of plans. However
as someone else pointed out it’s either got to be priced so low that someone will buy speculatively, possibly never then building or the perspective
buyer must have all the information in advance to reassure them that their money will not be wasted
What did I miss in the interim?
A few weeks ago you drove it for the very first time, had major steering problems and yet the build plans are available?
That just doesn't compute.
350 dollar?not wort it i think
quote:
orton1966
Junior Builder Posts 16 Registered 31/8/08 Member Is Online Building: posted on 7/3/09 at 03:23 PM Better Pictures I really like the concept but unless I’m missing something I think your site needs some better pictures, especially showing some of the finer build detail, suspension etc. I think this is especially important, at what many have already commented, is a premium price. From my own prospective I would pay the kind of money your asking if I knew the following: The spaceframe was exceptionally well designed with good 3 dimensional triangulation. The underlying design criteria behind the suspension and steering geometry i.e as a designer what have you prioritised controlling, scrub, camber change etc.? More information about engine options, Audi engines, which ones, the transverse or the in-line versions? Estimated completed weight and build cost. Source of other major build components i.e. uprights front and rear. I’m certainly not trying to knock what you’ve done and I certainly think there is a market for a well thought out and marketed set of plans. However as someone else pointed out it’s either got to be priced so low that someone will buy speculatively, possibly never then building or the perspective buyer must have all the information in advance to reassure them that their money will not be wasted
quote:
cheapracer
Junior Builder Posts 28 Registered 29/11/08 Member Is Offline Building: Exo Skeleton middy posted on 7/3/09 at 06:04 PM What did I miss in the interim? A few weeks ago you drove it for the very first time, had major steering problems and yet the build plans are available? That just doesn't compute.
quote:
dream J
unior Builder Posts 36 Registered 13/3/03 Member Is Offline Building: posted on 7/3/09 at 06:53 PM 350 dollar?not wort it i think
remember this is a locost forum,you dare to ask 350 for,congratulations,everybody's time is valuable,not just yours,
Not constructive again, keep dreaming dude.
Gakes, I can see this thread going the wrong way - granted you are seeing varied opinions, but making snide jokes towards other members usernames in
front of potential customers is plain bad business. Take the negative onboard gracefully and thank the praise...
All the best with the endeavour
James
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
Not constructive again, keep dreaming dude.
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
Not constructive again, keep dreaming dude.
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
Not constructive again, keep dreaming dude.
Firstly guys, I apologize for getting a bit steamed up.
Secondly, If you've read the whole thread, you will come across a section:
quote:
Gakes
Hi all,
Did some revision changes to my plans to make the build easier and cheaper.
So now I'm selling them at 350U$ dollars if anynone is interested.
Visit http://sites.google.com/site/xocars/ for info or ccontact me xosportscars@gmail.com
quote:
Gakes
I havent been posting my solutions much really if u havent noticed, all I mostly do is post questions if I'm not sure. My steering problem was one of the easiest things to sort out. I did lots of research, bought a couple of books and it was a simple thing. My castor, camber and toe-in were all out, so it was basically an alignment issue. I can give you ALL the suspension settings you'll need to setup this car. I am that confident in my suspension design. As you should know, its all down to the suspension setup if you have a good chassis.
How are you selling the plans? I would suggest you set up a Lulu book (google it if you don't know what it is) and then customers can order a
finished book, without you having to get any published.
And as said before, the price needs to be lower to attract buyers. You can still buy plans from Allan Staniforth for a world record beating car for a
lot less, and thats from someone that WROTE the suspension books that others now copy.
IMHO a set of plans needs to be under £50 GBP. And you'd better hurry to reduce the price as there are already a handfull of people that have
made atomesque middies that have been asked for plans, so you could soon be up against some very good competition.
Gakes you state you fully understand how suspension works, but yet have made some really basic mistakes. The fact you've painted those parts
shows to some degree to us that you intended they would do the job. This may not be the case - but you need to show far more detail in the revised
setup first
It's premature to offer build plans until your car has proven itself with some hard miles under it's belt.
I'm not saying I fully understand , what I am saying is that I've done lots of research and calculations. The first setup was merely in
prototype form, if it did work, then it was gr8 and its painted 
, but it didn't and it was a learning curve. The info and data from the first
setup was recorded and necessary changes were made to the model.
ie. my first setup had too much camber and castor, 12 degrees and 8 degrees respectively. The steering geometry was only a mockup and bump steer was
noticeable as I made it work in the meantime.These things are also costly, so made use of what I had. Another example is that the steering of a FWD
VW turns opposite to that of a Cortina/Sierra.
Don't think I take any of this lightly. I have invested in tools and gadgets ( Lasers, levels, straight edges and angle finding/ measuring tools
etc) to precisely measure and then record the data. This is what I expect all builders do, bcos industrial designers do.
Nobody can make a full list of parts they going to use for something that they haven't done before.
What I've learnt from my years in the industrial design industry is that companies do not over spend on prototypes, theres a budget and a target,
and everyone works towards that.
It sounds like you have the right mindset to make the project work, so just finish the car and work out all the bugs first!
James
I have been following many of the threads for a long time, some spectacular builds!!! but there are things that most haven't thought of as I did,
e.g. Safety in collisions,pedestrian safety, specific types of materials that aid passengers and pedestrians in safety. I do not like it when some
make judgments without any knowledge of the things they comment on. Maybe it is my fault for not mentioning, of these points picked up,I am a man of
few words, I only answer if questioned, and for that I apologize ladies and gentlemen.
[Edited on 9/3/09 by Gakes]
Hang on hang on, you are telling me most of the mid engine builders here haven't thought of things such as passenger safety or material types?
And then go on to accuse those who have raised concerns about your suspension design to be "without any knowledge" ?
I'm sorry, that's really wound me up - you've just completely lost my respect.
relax dude, I meant they have no background of me. Do u c wot i meant with ppl not knowing about the products or builder's intensions, hardly
anyone mentions the amount safety their car can provide. I only know of a few that mentions it, and can see in a few designs.
Dont make this wot its not. I did apologize and I said that ppl comment "without any knowledge" of me and my intentions.
Okay, you need to stop posting and start putting miles on the car, both on the street and on-track. Nothing will prove what you have better than
10,000 miles of hard driving.
You must drop the I-know-better attitude as it really rubs people the wrong way, especially with the car in the condition that it is. Even the
"fixed" A-arm have issues; why is the shock still located half way along the lower arm? Have you done the math to confirm they're of
sufficient strength, both in bending and compression?
My impression is that you've done okay for a first try, something of a mule to try out design ideas on, but NOT to sell, it's too
half-baked. My advice is to stop pushing it because it's damaging your reputation. Better to start doing a LOT of reading and then revisit the
design. 12 deg of camber?! That alone speaks volumes.
There have been other cars on here where the designer ignored critical analysis and ended up crashing the car. That's bad enough for a one-off
that's only a threat to you, but pushing them for sale way early in the design cycle is really asking for trouble. Consider what happens if
something breaks for a builder. What reputation you have will quickly go to zero. You really only have one shot at this, so don't put yourself
before the cart, so to speak.
[Edited on 3/9/09 by kb58]
Lets close this thread, and move on. Sorry guys
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
I meant they have no background of me.
hardly anyone mentions the amount safety their car can provide. .
"without any knowledge" of me and my intentions.
Hi guys,
I tried to post pictures to Locost, without success. Gakes has built an xO400 for me that's on its way to the U.S. now. the "400"
stands for 400kg, which is the estimated weight when using a Hayabusa motor.
Gakes has one trait that I admire in a designer--the ability to listen and constructively work with a design idea. I asked if he could not only
incorporate a 'Busa motor into his design, but if he could rotate it longitudinally and hook up a standard differential and IRS. He complied by
installing a Sierra 7" differential that also includes a cush drive and a large gear. The gear allows for the use of an electric reverse.
I've posted a few pictures here:
http://www.exocars.net/showthread.php?t=4302&page=2
You can also see a CAD picture of his frame in the thread that includes the 'Busa motor located longitudinally.
Someone tell me what I'm doing wrong and I'll post more pictures on Locost.
[Edited on 4/12/09 by cordycord]
[Edited on 4/12/09 by cordycord]
ive had a look at the web site
so little information its untrue
??????????
links that dont work or dont exist
aitch
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
Lets close this thread, and move on. Sorry guys
Some basic engineering principles that Mr.Gakes needs to know.
The most obvious at this point is not to put welds in the middle of wishbone tubes, if those previous pics are of the latest incarnation.
The rest of the build looks fairly agricultural, and very poorly thought out, if thought at all.
Gakes, are you an engineer? Have you had a Professional Engineer look at the plans and car?
By selling plans, you are saying that the design is safe and Fit for Purpose. You better get good insurance, and that will only come when a
professional 'signs off' the design and drawings.
Good Luck! You surely need it.
This thing looks like a billycart compared to AlanB's effort. Sorry.
Cheers,
Nev.
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Some basic engineering principles that Mr.Gakes needs to know.
The most obvious at this point is not to put welds in the middle of wishbone tubes, if those previous pics are of the latest incarnation.
The rest of the build looks fairly agricultural, and very poorly thought out, if thought at all.
Gakes, are you an engineer? Have you had a Professional Engineer look at the plans and car?
By selling plans, you are saying that the design is safe and Fit for Purpose. You better get good insurance, and that will only come when a professional 'signs off' the design and drawings.
Good Luck! You surely need it.
This thing looks like a billycart compared to AlanB's effort. Sorry.
Cheers,
Nev.
Just want to know why so many have so much to say when they havent even seen or tried my products.
I do accept criticism not word vomit. No offence guys and GIRLS, but the proof is in the pudding.
How can anyone risk losing clients or even lives??? The first car was a "PROTOTYPE" (something to test theory and ideas). If some of you
dont know what that means, try Google!
Obviously the product has evolved and developed exponentially if it is going to be sold. I will never want to burden myself with mortalities on my
conscious. I would never be able to live with myself.
I have taken this year to develop xO products and test them till they gave in. I ran an engineering company in Cape Town and produced high
quality products for the food industry and Bio Labs. I've designed the best motorhomes that are sold in South Africa and many other products. I
do not want to mention my qualifications as well, it may seem as if I'm bragging.
I dont like having to mention these, but if my finished products are to be questioned then I have to defend myself. I'm an honest guy and speak
very few words, but I will accept a challenge.
BTW, I've stopped selling plans a few months ago if nobody has noticed!
[Edited on 8/12/09 by Gakes]
If you are so well qualified, well experienced, and have designed and built such fantastic creations otherwise; then answer us this:
Why are we looking at something that so obviously lacks knowledgeable automotive and basic structural engineering input,...still?
As for conscience; many a fatality has occurred due to blissful ignorance, and many more from misplaced arrogant confidence.
Something in this just doesn't add up, doesn't make sense, if you are supposed to be so well educated and experienced as you suggest.
Cheers,
Nev.
quote:
Originally posted by Gakes
Just want to know why so many have so much to say when they havent even seen or tried my products.
]
Cheapracer
quote:
It may well be a case of too much honesty. I worry about every picture I show for what that picture will show, especially on a prototype which some just don't understand what that means, as you allude to. If you have thick skin of which you seem to then post clear close ups that show all the pimples and be open to learning/critism. If you don't have thick skin then be careful of what you display. I believe your Aarms are up for scrutiny, if there is any welding apart obviously from the end pieces, I think you have an onus to prove that it isn't an issue. I am a certified Australian Roadworthy Inspector and if you fronted a vehicle to me with welding mid arms I would ask for your Engineers Certification to take the onus off of me or I would knock you back.
quote:
Something in this just doesn't add up, doesn't make sense,
Gakes you have an awsome looking car good to see your development as answering the criticisms put forward.....
The busa engine build is also looking awsome ill probably be going BEC probably busa and mid engined, i will post everthing im doing from design
consepts through design process and then the build, im far less knowledgeable than you to start off with so i will need the criticism to correct
errors as i desig and build..
would be good to see more of the end result of your design and development
aitch
So, is that picture above an image of the CURRENT front lower 'A arms'?
If you have a better and more current design, then please show it. If not, those lower wishbones are 'an accident waiting to happen', and
all I've already said stands.
What would Cheapracer say about those arms in the pic above?
Cheers,
Nev.
Neville,
Those are his old pictures. I recommend you follow Gakes advice and look at his new website. It's possible that the old site loads
automatically in your computer--you may need to reload in order to get the new pictures and information.
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
So, is that picture above an image of the CURRENT front lower 'A arms'?
If you have a better and more current design, then please show it. If not, those lower wishbones are 'an accident waiting to happen', and all I've already said stands.
What would Cheapracer say about those arms in the pic above?
Cheers,
Nev.
Maybe a link to the current website could be put here, to help everyone.
The only site I get to from the first post on this thread, still shows dodgy 'engineering', if it can be called that.
Cheers,
Nev.
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Maybe a link to the current website could be put here, to help everyone.
The only site I get to from the first post on this thread, still shows dodgy 'engineering', if it can be called that.
Cheers,
Nev.
I have taken your advice, looked at the website, studied the images.
Hayabusa, best stick with a CG125 until the development work is done.
As for qualifications, all I can see so far is a C&G in bullshit
[Edited on 9/12/09 by Mark Allanson]
until powdercoat can improve structural integrity, i wont be stealing any of gakes' ideas
Thanks for the comments guys, both good and bad.
The "xO" cars parts are of great quality and have been well thought out. Some pics you see are just from my first prototype that I've
tried. The car was tested and a few flaws turned up The suspension was redesigned, then redesigned again. All the progress from the initial designs
were documented and used to make improvements. The new designs worked well and all info gained from testing was used to update the whole design. I do
admit, my way of thinking is unconventional, but we all have our own styles
What I can tell you, is that the handling amazed me!!! I drive formula Vee and formula ford cars often and they cant compare to the amount of frontal
grip the xO has. I was truly shocked to see the difference.
We are all trying to create a low cost performance community we can all enjoy. I dont even know if anyone here has been a top engineer or designer for
large automotive companies. Wot I do know is that that forums like these are our institutions and nobody can say they dont learn from LOCOSTBUILDERS
and they come with a complete car design and building knowledge, all I do know is that we are all striving.
Even if the knowledge does not come from this site, it gives us an idea of where to start looking.
I truly appreciate the criticism, keeps you on your toes
www.xosportscars.com
How 'bout posting some of your stuff Neville?
"Aitch" good luck on your build. please post some pics of your planning and thoughts
Gakes, I think a lot of criticism came from the design of the front wishbones in particular as critical safety issue. Perhaps if you shared some of
the revisions in this thread it would help alleviate the concern? I've looked through both your websites and cannot see a design without welds in
the arm's length shown anywhere. I see you have updated the rear top shock mounts, they look much better
I understand why you are defensive, it's difficult when it's your own work being questioned - but remember there are a lot of people who
really know what they are talking about here - and they can only comment on what they are shown...
quote:
Originally posted by cordycord
www.xosportscars.com
How 'bout posting some of your stuff Neville?
Let's just leave it at that. 
Someone lock this thread, its like digging up a dead body and flogging it some more.
I can´t appreciate detail on posted picture,
Could you post BIGGER???