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Author: Subject: 5VY R1 upgrade for track use - can you all sanity check please?
Gergely

posted on 21/5/09 at 12:08 PM Reply With Quote
5VY R1 upgrade for track use - can you all sanity check please?

Hi,
After our first 5VY (2004-2006) Yahama R1 engine blowing up after 10 laps on track (see link below), we have read a lot about what could have caused the issue and have talked to several racers in the UK and Australia about their experiences with this engine, so combining all those experiences here is our upgrade plan for the second engine:

Link to what happened to the first engine

- Sump baffle plate fitted
- Crankcase breather modifications - freeing up crankcase breathing, ensuring that the oil is not spat out from there because of high crankcase pressure and restricted breathing
- Installation of oil catch tank - ensuring that if any oil is still spat out it is caught and can be checked how much is missing from the engine... if too much is spat out too quickly, feed the catch tank back to the engine oil loop.
- Installation of 2qt Accusump to ensure that if there is still oil surge or lower pressure, there is a backup
- Installation of an oil cooler
- Installation of oil temperature gauge with super strong warning light in front of driver
- Installation of super strong oil pressure low level warning light in front of driver (we have an oil pressure gauge already, but it's hard to watch in the heat of the moment...)

The idea is that with the breather modifications oil should not escape the system without us noticing it (catch tank). During gradual testing it will be clear if the engine spits out any oil into the catch tank, so loss of oil should be evident. At the same time we will have the Accusump as a backup.
With the oil cooler we will take care of the possible overheating, another thing that several people mentioned.
And the instruments and more importantly the lights will notify us of any potential issues during track work.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this setup? Or any suggestions from anyone? Cheers,
Gergely





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nitram38

posted on 21/5/09 at 12:51 PM Reply With Quote
The trouble with an oil light is that oil pressure drops to around 6psi at idle so an oil light will be on. You will probably need one that switches at 20psi or more.
Some digi-dashes allow you to link the light to the revs and at low revs/low oil pressure, will switch it off.
By the time you see an oil light it will be too late anyway.
Accusump and catchtank breather (catchtank required by racing rules) are good insurance.
I have a baffle plate in mine, but I am keeping my eye out for an accusump in case I track the car.






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a4gom

posted on 21/5/09 at 02:18 PM Reply With Quote
Looks like a plan, we have just fitted two of these to westfields, we have only done the hillclimb at Harerwood, approx 50 miles on the road and a good 3hr session on the rollers but have seen no problems so far with either. We have fitted sump baffles, catch tanks to the original breather and modded the AIS by removing the cover plate, scrapping the internals, blocking the original holes through to the exhaust and drilling some holes through the cam cover we then replaced the original covers, this should allow it to breath. We intend to connect the outlets on the covers to the catch tank but haven't got round to it yet.

For future ref for myself and other readers who may not know the mods and or much about the engine a little more detail on how to do the mods would be good.
- What are the Crankcase breather modifications you are doing?
- "feed the catch tank back to the engine oil loop". which is where?
- Installation of an oil cooler, have you found a supplier for this set up, where does it connect in (how much does it cost?

Cheers





Andy

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kjouk

posted on 21/5/09 at 10:19 PM Reply With Quote
As a4gom will tell you I had rather a lot of grief with this last year in a sprint westy on an '07 engine.

From what I have seen there are two symptoms of the problem, the obvious significant oil out of the crankcase or oil being leaked around an engine cover seal. Bikers report even slightly bending the crank breath pipe can cause the seal problem, so be very careful of any sign of an oil leak.

Heat does appear to play some factor, the two crank failures we have had were when the engine was at its hottest, i.e. the last run of a trackday. Maybe coincidence but during a recent sprint at Croft we ran fine all day double driving until the last run when there was some oil ejected, that is even with breathers in the AIS ports. The other two sprints we have done this year showed no problem but they were on less demanding tracks for the engine.

For trackday use, an oil cooler appears needed, I added one after seeing 150C at the Croft outing, think auto can help for cira 180 all in, although their adapter does needs a bit of work to make it fit. At a minimum make sure you have oil temp. gauge and have done the AIS breathing mod if only because its free and won't make matters worse.

I currently fill it up to just enough to avoid the oil warning light coming on at cold start but no more. Crank breather connects to a small catch tank that can drain back into the engine. An outlet on the catch runs to the airbox just to give an early warning of any significant oil loss.

On a slightly brighter note I have not seen any sign of oil surge in data logs other than on high-speed/g left bends. That is with the standard baffle so dry sump etc should not be needed for most

Kev

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Major Stare

posted on 22/5/09 at 07:00 AM Reply With Quote
Concerned !!

Just had a 2003 R1 fitted and it should be ready for road use in the next 7days.

I have not done anything with the breather pipe as yet, so what do i need to do, any pics would help??????

Also, as its a road car (no track use), do i definetly need a baffled sump?





Jon "FISH"

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nitram38

posted on 22/5/09 at 07:47 AM Reply With Quote
You need the minimum of a sump baffle and a slight oil overfill (about 250ml) because unlike on a bike, your engine does not lean over in corners.
This causes the oil to be forced up the inside of the block away from the pick up.
A baffle plate is good for road use, but a baffle plus accusump is a must if you are tracking your car.

Major Stare, you have u2u.






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Gergely

posted on 22/5/09 at 08:47 AM Reply With Quote
Nitram, I realise that the low pressure light will be on at idle, but as long as I know that is normal, there should be no problem. What I don't want to see is the light coming on when driving...
Also, if you plan to track your car, make sure that you have an oil cooler as well. Several racers commented on the heat being an issue.

a4gom, the breather modifications I plan to do are:
Removing the internal valves from behind the crankcase breather cover plates, connecting one of the breathers to the opposite side of the engine to the gearbox breather, and connecting the other crankcase breather to the catch tank. All using large diameter pipes.
In case the oil catch tank fills up with oil regularly, we will make some more mods to drain it back to the engine. Where? I am not sure myself yet... Maybe to the gearbox breather as well? i will have to look into this if I see much oil going into the tank - and out of the engine...
For the oil cooler I have been looking at Mocal for now. I plan to use a sandwitch plate with a built in thermostat to the oil filter thread between the block and the filter. Run a pipe from there to the oil cooler, run the other pipe back to the sandwitch plate, but just before the block tee in the Accusump. Mocal is not cheap and the oil lines are not either... The cooler is somewhere around 100 pounds, but to be honest I have been looking at the local, Hungarian prices, so can't help really... I might look at other suppliers, too...
To be honest, I don't quite get the breather mods you are doing. Why is blocking the exhaust ports good? And why do you drill a new hole when you already have two breathers on the cam cover? Can you explain please? I am not an expert...

kjouk, does the oil level light work in your car? It doesn't in my case... I think it is because the engine is at a slightly different angle than on the bike and the sender sticks when not completely vertical...
Where do you drain the oil from your catch tank back to the engine? Can you explain please?
Also, can you explain the comment:
quote:

An outlet on the catch runs to the airbox just to give an early warning of any significant oil loss


I don't get it, what sort of warning do you get? If you connect anything in the airbox, the engine will just suck the oil in and burn it, will it not?

Major Stare, apparently the pre-2004 engines are not prone to this - so I am told -, but as nitram says, a sump baffle plate is a must even for road use.
Additionnally keep an eye on your breather pipes for oil escaping to whereever these are connected to (airbox or catch tank) and if you see any oil there, you need to do the breather mods... check your oil levels as well.





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kjouk

posted on 22/5/09 at 09:14 AM Reply With Quote
@Gergely

I think the oil light is working OK. If I fill to normal levels it will come on when idling from cold. As the oil heats up it appears to return to the sump quicker and so goes off. The engine is aligned as close as I could get it to its normal position in the bike. The light can also comes on under heavy track use but the vast majority of times that appears harmless. I just like to fill enough to get rid of it under most conditions so when it does come on I can take it seriously.

The catch tank is small enough (about 1/2 ltr) to sit right above the crank breather. So any oil ejected can drain straight back into the crank breather.

I connected the outlet of this catch to the airbox so if there was any significant loss I would see exhaust smoke as an early warning sign. Previously I ran crank breather to larger catch but of course I would not know of problems then until too late.

This is all on a 4C8, a 5VY might be less prone to the issue but I have chatted to a few 5VY owners who have experienced similar issues, but not as bad as mine.

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nitram38

posted on 22/5/09 at 09:19 AM Reply With Quote
On the oil cooler issue are you talking about a seperate one instead of the R1 cooler already built in?
My Rad is double the core thickness of the R1 original, with the same surface area and is mounted at the front of the MotaLeira.
I was hoping that the standard one through this rad would be enough.






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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 22/5/09 at 09:39 AM Reply With Quote
Looks sane, I haven't run an R1, my favourite weapon of choice is the GSXR750-1000.

http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p5070058.jpg

I've seen plenty of cars around the tracks with R1's of all vintages, they certainly appear strong. All have a baffle plate and a heavy overfill, with no problems. I'd rest easy with that, avoid complications. Track days will need an oil cooler and it goes without saying a very good synthetic oil.

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Gergely

posted on 22/5/09 at 09:58 AM Reply With Quote
Nitram, Yes, A separate oil cooler in the nose. The standard oil/water cooler on the bike will not be enough - so I am told. I would fit one if I were you...
Since I want to take the track driving seriously and avoid issues, I will fit a nice and big one myself.

kjouk, is there any chance that you could post a picture of your catch tank setup please?
As for the smoke, I have not realised the smoke while driving... the mirrors are too small for that, although on the photos it was visible afterwards... so beware.





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kjouk

posted on 22/5/09 at 12:22 PM Reply With Quote
Put some in my photo archive. Not pretty, but had enough of buying/repairing engines for one year. The open connector at the bottom is blocked off

Kev

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a4gom

posted on 22/5/09 at 12:46 PM Reply With Quote
Major stare ~ I don't believe its an issue on your engine, just the later ones.

Gergely, I had thought about running my gearbox breather direct to one of the AIS covers (I have holes in there like kjouk) and then running my other AIS to the catch tank, that way if it threw the oil out its throwing it into the engine. This was how I had my xflow set up with no probs. I didn't do it that way as no one else seemed to do it?? Did someone suggest that to you from experience or was that something you came up with?





Andy

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Johneturbo

posted on 22/5/09 at 02:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kjouk
Put some in my photo archive. Not pretty, but had enough of buying/repairing engines for one year. The open connector at the bottom is blocked off

Kev


just had a sneaky look at the pics

so have you filled in the AIS then drilled a bigger hole on eachside?

i need to do mine, as even with just hard road driving i'm getting some oil blowout from the breather

cheers
john

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Gergely

posted on 22/5/09 at 02:50 PM Reply With Quote
a4gom, apologies, I forgot to mention one part of the modification: the drilling of the cover beneath the AIS port after having removed the reed valves. Just like you have done. Also, I re-read the modification suggestions that I received from various people, including road warrior from Australia, and the exhaust port blocking needs to be done, too. So I will do that as well.
Road warrior do the pipes as we want to, here is how they explained to me:
"Run a hose from the original gearbox breather across to the rear AIS so that any oil pumped out of the RHS of the engine goes back into the rocker area. Run another hose from the front AIS to a breather tank to catch any oil that does manage to get out."

For anyone interested, I will upload all the modifications pictures I have received from various people into my photo archive, so that you can see.

kjouk, thanks for the pictures!

Gergely





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Coose

posted on 22/5/09 at 08:31 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Major Stare
Concerned !!

Just had a 2003 R1 fitted and it should be ready for road use in the next 7days.

I have not done anything with the breather pipe as yet, so what do i need to do, any pics would help??????

Also, as its a road car (no track use), do i definetly need a baffled sump?


My '01 R1 (same motor as yours but on carbs) did many, many trackdays using a JB7 sump baffle and the oil level at the top of the window on tickover with no problems whatsoever! I had a K&N filter on the breather which was fine....





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kjouk

posted on 25/5/09 at 11:15 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Johneturbo
quote:
Originally posted by kjouk
Put some in my photo archive. Not pretty, but had enough of buying/repairing engines for one year. The open connector at the bottom is blocked off

Kev


just had a sneaky look at the pics

so have you filled in the AIS then drilled a bigger hole on eachside?

i need to do mine, as even with just hard road driving i'm getting some oil blowout from the breather

cheers
john


Yes, you can get little plugs to block the AIS outlets in the head (come with AIS blank plates that some bikers uses) but I just gummed up on rocker with some JBWeld as I was going to drill the cover anyway and use the existing AIS plates to catch anything ejected.

Kev

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Gergely

posted on 26/5/09 at 04:58 AM Reply With Quote
We have done the modifications that all racers suggested. Here is the brief description:
Remove the cam cover and remove the AIS covers.

AIS covers
AIS covers


Remove the reed valves completely, only leave the top metal holder plate (with the rectangular slots)

Reed valves
Reed valves


Drill two holes in the cam cover under where the reed valves used to be and block the two exhaust ports using some aluminium inserts or screws...

Modified breather
Modified breather


Replace the two rectangular metal plates (without the reed valves), replace the AIS covers (we have put them back upside down) and replace the cam cover.

Completed modification
Completed modification


All that remains now is to connect the breathers with the catch tank and the gearbox breather on the other side of the engine. We didn't have time to do that yet, maybe this week...

A huge thanks goes to Sonja and Greg (road warrior), Andy Bates at AB performance, and several other RGB racers for their help with the modifications. All that remains to be seen of course is how these will work, but together with our new oil pressure gauge and warning light, the oil temperature gauge and light, the planned oil cooler and the optional Accusump, we should be covered. The Accusump is something we will only install if we see dropping pressures on track.
Gergely





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Johneturbo

posted on 26/5/09 at 12:35 PM Reply With Quote
Great step by step guide, makes it a lot more straight forward now

did you need to replace the rocker cover gasket or re-use

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Gergely

posted on 26/5/09 at 03:36 PM Reply With Quote
All the credit for the modifications should go to other people, I just photographed our own version...
The rocker cover gasket is made of rubber and seems re-useable, so that's what we have done.
Gergely





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a4gom

posted on 26/5/09 at 06:26 PM Reply With Quote
with regards connecting the gearbox to rear ais and front ais to catch tank was this a common thing between road warrior, andy bates and the rgb racers or just road warrior?
It sounds just the job I had considered doing it when I did mine but didn't as I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it. I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do? Wasn't sure if it may introduce condensation into the engine?





Andy

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Gergely

posted on 27/5/09 at 08:00 AM Reply With Quote
Hi Andy,
Only Road Warrior has done it exactly this way. Since most of the crankcase gases will go to the catch tank, I think most of the condensation will land there as well.
With frequent oil changes I think this should not be a problem.
Gergely





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GeoffMM

posted on 18/11/09 at 12:22 PM Reply With Quote
Surely this should be a sticky with such essential info!

Thanks very much, just what i was looking for.






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foes

posted on 10/4/10 at 01:24 PM Reply With Quote
Right, looks like I need to get this breather mod done, looks pretty straight forward.

Just one thing, where can those aluminum inserts/plugs to block the exhaust ports be purchased from? Thats the only bit i'm struggling on, finding something to seal those up properly...

Also where's the best place to purchase a catch tank from, are the cheapo ones off ebay any good?

Cheers.



[Edited on 10/4/10 by foes]

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foes

posted on 12/4/10 at 06:18 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by foes
Right, looks like I need to get this breather mod done, looks pretty straight forward.

Just one thing, where can those aluminum inserts/plugs to block the exhaust ports be purchased from? Thats the only bit i'm struggling on, finding something to seal those up properly...

Also where's the best place to purchase a catch tank from, are the cheapo ones off ebay any good?

Cheers.






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