r1_pete
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:20 PM |
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In Tank fuel pump in swirl pot?
Has anyone fitted the injection pump in a swirl pot?
Does it / Would it work?
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Antnicuk
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:24 PM |
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dont see why not, it would displace quite a lot of fuel though, in a small swirl pot.
i nearly bought a swirl pot from a rallly car which had the pump built into it.
600 BHP per ton, Stylus Brought back from the dead! Turbo Rotary Powered!
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GBaggott
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:26 PM |
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I am about to try it.
Suffered fuel surge issues at Cadwell so I need to fit a swirl pot.
The ZX14 needs to run on the intank original motorcycle pump so the only solution i see is to run the fuel pump in the swirl pot.
I'm just in the middle of sourcing a one off swirl pot.
Ill let you know how it goes.
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GBaggott
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:28 PM |
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Antnicuk, What problems did you have at Cadwell?
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twybrow
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:35 PM |
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May I ask how much for the swirl pot? I am faced with the same problem. I am tempted to try putting some sort of sump into my fuel tank to have the
inlet in. Alternatively, can you build some sort of swirl pot arrangement by dropping a large tube over the inlet, and have the fuel rail return
topping up the ib-built resevior. The only issue I see wit that is that the fuel might warm up if there was no flow at all through the tube (if you
see what I mean?)....
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Antnicuk
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by GBaggott
Antnicuk, What problems did you have at Cadwell?
i killed the engine 
not sure why yet, it will be coming out at the weekend.
600 BHP per ton, Stylus Brought back from the dead! Turbo Rotary Powered!
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GBaggott
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 09:01 PM |
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Brow,
I see what you mean about the tall pipe above the fuel outlet and inlet so there is always some fuel in it as its filled from the return.
It might work, but your then restricting some of the fuel in the tank from entering the pipe, hence having a half full tank but it not being able to
get out.
Simple solution.
You can run a sump/swirl pot on the bottom of the tank, not in the tank.
On the bottom of the tank the sump is gravity fed, so in essence you run a gravity fed swirl pot and don't require a lift pump.
The hole in to the sump will be about 25mm diameter and the sump about a 100 x 100 x 50mm the small hole feed into this small sump stops the fuel
surging away.
This is a standard design which isn't working for the zx14 and pump layout.
Ive only just sent out a few requests for bespoke swirl pots so have no prices as yet
Sorry to hear about the engine issues ant
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fatbaldbloke
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 09:44 PM |
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If you're looking for an all-in-one solution you could try the VW digifant system. You can usually get a complete unit for £30-40 off ebay.
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belgian2b
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 10:09 PM |
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Hello,
i build a swirl pot around my standard ZX12 fuel pump.
So , a red top facett pump fills my swirl pot, thenn zx12 pump give pressure to the fuel rail.
return to the swirl pot and excess from the swirl pot goes to the tank.
Works well
Gerardo
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twybrow
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| posted on 8/7/09 at 10:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by GBaggott
Brow,
It might work, but your then restricting some of the fuel in the tank from entering the pipe, hence having a half full tank but it not being able to
get out.
But you would have a small gap at the base of it to allow a slow trickle of fuel in and out. It would then always be slightly higher level than the
rest of the tank....
I like some of those other ideas though.... Food for thought!
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andrew-theasby
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 10:18 AM |
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heres mine, not tested it yet but cant see any reason why it wont work. Just a blackbird injection pump in a small pot fed by the main tank with an
overflow back to the main tank and the fuel rail returns to the swirl pot
[Edited on 9/7/09 by andrew-theasby]
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andrew-theasby
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 10:20 AM |
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Rescued attachment swirl pot lcb.jpg
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SPYDER
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 04:48 PM |
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Here is our front mounted swirl pot containing the standard Blade injection pump. It is fed from the main tank by another pump and has a return back
to the tank.
No fuel in it yet, hence no pipe clips.
Geoff.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 05:58 PM |
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If the pump fails, how do you get it out?
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SPYDER
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 08:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
If the pump fails, how do you get it out?
It's simply bolted up to the bottom of the swirl pot. It's not trapped inside. The bottom of the tank is CNC machined from solid. It has
a chunky mounting flange for the pump and thinner circumference for easier welding to the body. The pump mounts using a standard rubber gasket.
All the circular welds were done on a positioner. Only one stop-start.
Geoff
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andrew-theasby
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 08:19 PM |
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Mines not as posh as that, just drew round the pump flange and marked the mounting holes on, then made the tank around it tall enough to suit. Used
the original gasket.
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SPYDER
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 08:28 PM |
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Hi Andrew.
Popular opinion says that we both may need to put a restrictor in the feed line to the swirl pot so that the feed pump has a small resistance to work
against, otherwise it may run too fast and either overheat or simply wear out quickly.
We haven't put a restrictor in yet. What are your thoughts?
Geoff.
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andrew-theasby
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 08:46 PM |
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Hi, thanks for that, i questioned that quite some time ago when i was originally thinking about it, and no one really had any definite answers, ive
thought through loads of ideas so far including restricting the outlet so air escapes quickly but once its full it slows down (but this way it means
the swirl pot is pressurised to whatever your pumps rated at) dont know if that will cause probs but i personally think the high pressure side will be
increased in pressure too as a result, so im settled on using a piece of 8mm brass bar in the fuel line near low press pump and drilling it 1mm if the
pump is hardly working then going a bit bigger until its pumping steadily. If thats too big (bear in mind it will be at 4 psi ish) then might need to
be even smaller. Only draw back i can think with this is on the first ever engine start it will take ages to fill the pot, but you could do yours
through the lid. Im going to use clear fuel line returning from swirl pot so i can monitor when its full, but you only have to fill it at the rate
the engine is using it which is very low, so im fairly confident this way should work well.
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SPYDER
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 08:52 PM |
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I've got loads of drills in the 1 - 2mm range if you need any.
U2U me.
Geoff.
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andrew-theasby
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| posted on 9/7/09 at 09:41 PM |
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Thanks for the offer, keep us informed on how you get on with yours too
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 10/7/09 at 09:30 AM |
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Geoff,
That is a nice tank. Who are GE Motorsport? Is it you? I googled and only found a Swedish company.
If it is you, have you thought of making a batch of these? I'd be interested, as it allows me to retain all my fueling stuff for the carbs (if
one day I decide I want to go racing). ANy idea of the cost of a tank like this?
Regarding the air return, you could use a one way valve such as those used on to top of fuel tanks. These allow the air in/out but have a ball valve
to prevent the escape of fuel.
Matt
p.s. nice chassis, I haven't seen many round tube Phoenix
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SPYDER
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| posted on 10/7/09 at 04:41 PM |
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Hi Matt. GE Motorsport is a fanciful idea constructed from our initials. It's not a business. Eldon does do various fabrications, fuel tanks,
breather tanks etc on a casual basis. I'll ask him about making these tanks and get a price. That's if he's got time.
All his work is A1. You won't find a better welder.
He would need to know what pump etc.
I'll U2U U.
The chassis is a 2004 , I think, and is round tube up to the rear bulkhead. We've added some extra triangulation in various areas.
It now has the body fitted and will hopefully soon be ready to roll!
Geoff.
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r1_pete
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| posted on 12/7/09 at 04:14 PM |
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I'm thinking about using a float arrangement in trhe top of the swirl pot, lika a carburettor, the low pressure pump would work as normal
then??..
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jeffw
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| posted on 12/7/09 at 06:22 PM |
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Some lovely welding !
Question is ...if you have the facilities to do that why not simple make a fuel tank with a swirl pot in the bottom and mount your HP pump in that.
Saves on a lot of pluming and does away with a LP pump. This replicates what is done in all Injection cars (and bikes).
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SPYDER
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| posted on 13/7/09 at 10:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Some lovely welding !
Question is ...if you have the facilities to do that why not simple make a fuel tank with a swirl pot in the bottom and mount your HP pump in that.
Saves on a lot of pluming and does away with a LP pump. This replicates what is done in all Injection cars (and bikes).
Fair point jeff and one which sometimes occurs to me as well!
Answer is.....in our case I guess we do it because we can. It has been this way from the start of the build. It's probably because we have the
facilities to do it, that we do it! If you see what I mean.
The car has needle roller top suspension arms and needle rollers in the steering column. Titanium anti roll bar blades and paddle shift. Lots of CNC
parts. Full Titanium exhaust. etc. etc.
We go OTT a lot. It's got to the stage where we can't help it and don't know when to stop!
We need help! Or medication maybe?
Eg. pedal set.
God help us!!
But apart from the brake balance bar it has cost us NOTHING!
Over engineered maybe? But good solid engineering nonetheless. ( I'll justify this insanity if it kills me!)
A hell of a lot of the car is genuinely low cost. No, really!! Most of the raw materials have come from the works scrap bin. Titanium included.
Of course, if you included the cost of our time then it's probably up to £30k. But we don't count that, do we.
The build is admired by most and has been called "inspirational".
We like that.
Regarding the swirl pot we already had a suitable pump and since we make everything ourselves it hardly costs any extra. Eldon likes welding and I
like CNC machining. Even the fuel line guides are machined from solid. Did them on work's time.
And it 100% guarantees full fuel flow even with little or no fuel in the rear tank, a situation not to be sniffed at when charging round
Elvington's bumpy top bend in a Phoenix on slicks!
Other people, who are changing from carbs to injection, will find it an easier and cheaper solution than modifying the rear tank. Also lets you use
the original bike HP fuel line with it's banjo connectors.
Geoff.
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