COREdevelopments
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| posted on 21/6/10 at 10:58 PM |
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OT House electrics
Hi all, sorry for the OT post again. As mentioned in a previous post I have been Destroying my recently purchased first house. The electrics were in a
sorry state with the old steel cased consumer unit with rewireable fuses !! And wires that were going anywhere. My plan was to get a new consumer
unit but I have now ended up striping all old wires out and have began on the first fix. At this point i like to add I am a mechanic not an
electrician! But I feel competant to do the job and have almost finished the first fix. My main concern is trying to get someone out to test it and
certify it. I have spoken to a building inspector briefly who has told me i can either go through them or a suitable registered electrician who can
issue a installation certificate. But am i correct in thinking that the elctrician will only issue an installation cert if the job has been done by
himself and not me?? The building inspector said that a periodic cert is no good. So are there any electricians on here that can give me some good
advice? I do know of a sparky but he is the old school variety and not registered.
any help is appreciated
Rob
Oh ye forgot to mention my budget is very tight as I had to put a whooping deposit down just to buy the place! And no my baby has not seen any
sunshine this summer!!
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A1
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 12:39 AM |
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I do believe that its kinda meant to be done by a certified electrician, but i could be wrong.
You have to have the electrics tested every year or so or your house insurance is invalidated.
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 05:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by A1
I do believe that its kinda meant to be done by a certified electrician, but i could be wrong.
You have to have the electrics tested every year or so or your house insurance is invalidated.
I don't know where you heard about annual checks. Even on my rental places it only has to be checked every 5 (it may even be 10) years. And that
is to get a licence from the council, who are nit-picky.
The council chappie is correct, te building regs people can do an inspection for you. Alternatively have a word with your friend. If he is anything
like many such sparkies (i use one) they have a pet registered electrician or 2 who will do the checks and sign things off
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franky
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 05:58 AM |
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You CAN do all the work yourself, you just have to have it tested and inspected by a correctly registered/qualified person. They need a city and
guilds 2391.
You do not have to have the installation tested each year!! Sounds like someones been spun a yarn to get money from them.
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BenB
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 06:30 AM |
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Either
1) pay for building control to do it via the council
OR
2) try and get an electrician to do it but PartP is a self-certification scheme and some sparks will have wanted to have done the entire thing
(including the planning of the circuits) others will come in at a later stage and still be prepared to sign it off. But most will have their limits as
to how much you can have done.
Personally I've done the whole bloody lot including attaching all the sockets and I'm getting BC to sign it off once it's all done
and dusted.
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BenB
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 06:37 AM |
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Oh yes, one more thing. If you have basically done a complete re-wire I hope you've put the sockets at the right heights to comply with part
M.....
That's one thing that BC will pick up on..... My dad (architect) was involved in a job where the builders put the knock-out boxes 2cm too low
and the sparks didn't notice. BC did though and made them move them all 2cm up....
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britishtrident
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 06:58 AM |
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If my mates experience is anything to go by building control will reluctant to do it but if you push them they have to do it.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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Mal
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 07:16 AM |
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The majority of the work involved in wiring a house is mechanical, rather than electrical. By which I mean fitting the switch and socket boxes, runing
the cables and clipping it in place. If you cannot find an electrician to just test and issue a certificate you could d compromise by doing the
cabling and leaving him to terminate the ends and test it. Obviously you would need to find your electrican first so that he could tell you the
correct wiring sizes and fitted any dedicated earthing wires.
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rgrs
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 07:36 AM |
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Don't worry about heights, the regulations for new socket/switch heights only applies to new build not re-wire, also there is an exemption on
extensions (new build) enabling you to match the heights on the rest of the property.
Try to find a 'friendly' electrician as there are a few things that have to be done in a different way to meet current regs.
I discussed my re-wire with my electrician, then first and second fixed everthing except the distribution board.
I was suprised at how some things had been relaxed since i studied it some 15 years ago.
Roger
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skinned knuckles
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 08:04 AM |
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1) socket height applies only to new build
2)there is no annual inspection on domestic premesis, only commercial (and that is only advisory and can be every 2)
3) very few sparky's will give a certificate on someone elses work and at the very least will want to see all of your wiring before its
plastered in and even then you will need to demonstrate that you have the competency to do the job peoperly ( by seeing you actually do some of the
work)
4) there are several calculations needed to be done in order to use the correct wire sizes
5) BC tend to be far less tolerant of things not done EXACTLY by the book than most domestic sparks so would use them as a last resort.
A man isn't complete until he's married, then he's finished
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 09:01 AM |
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Once you have a tested new installation the test is 5 years from that date after 5 years it is reccomended to reduce the inspection time.
I would say two years, if you have a very old installation for peice of mind you may have it done every 12 months but you dont have to.
You need an electrician that has his part P certificate and registered with the local council. Because part P is expensisve to obtain they may charge
you over the odds for testing or even refuse.
The problem is that they become responsible for the installation once they have tested it and therefore would prefer to have installed it
throughout.
Dont forget that nowadays all circuits should be protected by RCD'S or a fully mechanically protected install like conduit (its in the new
regulations) so you need an enhanced protection consumer unit or he may not even contemplate testing it.
I am a electrical engineer (Industrial) with over 25 years experience and I wouldnt be able to test it because I havent got the part P.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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skinned knuckles
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 10:04 AM |
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i thought RCD's only needed to be on a citcuit that could be used to power appliences that could be used outside? either way, it is easy to
install the RCD at the consumer unit so that it covers all the 13A circuitry.
A man isn't complete until he's married, then he's finished
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 11:11 AM |
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Ah, it is not so simple....when I had a rental place inspected he "noted" that the CU only had an RCD. Said next time it should be a new
17th edition CU, or at least 2 RCD's. Another place has 2 CU's, one for lights/fire alarm is on a main switch, the other is an RCD. That
will need swapping to an RCD.
And the sparky who did a lot of the work (80 years old, always a sparky, now "lapsed" but gets his work signed off) has an old re-wirable
CU, 3 fuses covering his whole house. Bear in mind virtually NOBODY dies from electrocution in this country (or indeed europe) except whne using stuff
outside. Methinks the legislation has gone a little wild, and wants to keep sparky's employed. The "modern" wire thats been used for
the last 50? years doesn't seem to break down at all. Most failures I see are from cheap sockets/switches installed by electricians in the past.
I try to get quality stuff fitted...
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 01:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
Ah, it is not so simple....when I had a rental place inspected he "noted" that the CU only had an RCD. Said next time it should be a new
17th edition CU, or at least 2 RCD's. Another place has 2 CU's, one for lights/fire alarm is on a main switch, the other is an RCD. That
will need swapping to an RCD.
And the sparky who did a lot of the work (80 years old, always a sparky, now "lapsed" but gets his work signed off) has an old re-wirable
CU, 3 fuses covering his whole house. Bear in mind virtually NOBODY dies from electrocution in this country (or indeed europe) except whne using stuff
outside. Methinks the legislation has gone a little wild, and wants to keep sparky's employed. The "modern" wire thats been used for
the last 50? years doesn't seem to break down at all. Most failures I see are from cheap sockets/switches installed by electricians in the past.
I try to get quality stuff fitted...
It's not so much electrocution than fire hazard???
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bartonp
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 02:16 PM |
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17th ed regs are for new or substantial rewires - building regs are not retrospective.
You can replace existing circuits 'like for like' yourself and keep the old CU and not require BR or part P..... crazy, eh?
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Liam
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 07:01 PM |
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Hi there,
I've done exactly the same as you - full DIY rewire during my renovation. Well, not exactly the same as you - I read up on the requirements and
procedures beforehand
Basically, 'major work' (there's a full list of exactly what), including what you're doing is known as 'notifiable
work' which means it falls within the remit of building control, and one way or the other they want to know about it. Three main options (which
you can read all about in Approved Document P online)...
1. Work is done by qualified spark who is registered with a competent persons scheme (eg NICEIC). He notifies BC via his scheme - you dont have to
involve BC personally. This is the route you're essentially trying to go down if you try to find a 'friendly' (rides to work on a
horse some might say  ) registered spark who's prepared to certify someone elses work. If you can find one he is putting his career on the line
and will want to make damn sure your work is up to scratch (may already be too late) before he issues an EIC in his name and notifies BC via his
scheme. Job done.
2. Qualified (but not registered with a competent persons scheme) spark does work. You could possibly go down this route with that old school spark
you know. You need to submit a building notice to BC (do you already have one for other parts of this reno?) with the electrical work on it and pay
the fees. Qualified spark then does work (or is prepared to put his name to yours) including testing, fills in EIC and submits it to BC (who will
probably also want evidence of his qualifications/competence). Job done.
3. You DIY the work. As above you submit the building notice and pay their fees. BC is responsible for inspection and test and will want to see first
fix and completion as a minumum then test. Until recently BC had to perform inspection and test at their own expense - some did but many (including
mine) refused and would try to pass the cost on to the DIYer. As of April 2010 BC will now charge for this service. Job done.
That's how it's supposed to work, but many LABCs like to invent their own rules. The above ensures your paperwork is in order and you dont
have any problems at house selling time. You can of course ignore the official procedure and just do it all yourself but you may run into issues with
invalid house insurance and trouble at house selling time when the buyers solicitor asks the questions. This could mean a couple hundred quid to carry
out a PIR which is no big deal, but if that brings up faults you could be looking at having it ripped out and redone. Depends on whether you really
are competent enough to do the work.
Out of interest, how sure are you the work is up to scratch? Are all your cables properly rated and routed? All required RCD protection in
place? Main and supplementary bonding up to spec? Etc etc. I'd advise having the 17th OSG as a bare minimum as that's extremely useful.
You don't need to worry about art M socket/switch heights, but there's no good reason for not implementing them either - I did and find it
all much more ergonomic. Er, good luck!
Liam
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JoelP
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 07:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by bartonp
17th ed regs are for new or substantial rewires - building regs are not retrospective.
You can replace existing circuits 'like for like' yourself and keep the old CU and not require BR or part P..... crazy, eh?
Why on earth would you want to go to the effort of a full rewire and then leave the old board in?!
17th ed is a good thing. People may not often die from electrocution but i bet if you speak to the families of those who have, its no comfort. RCDs
substantially reduce the risk of electrocution, and on a correctly fitted new install will not often cause nuisance tripping.
Anyway OP, you dont need your job certifying, you need it testing. Any spark should be happy to do this, as he doesnt have to sign anything off. Then
you can be more sure its done correctly. No one will ever check or find out you did it yourself. Unless of course you kill someone with it, but then,
you do know what you're doing, dont you?!
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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COREdevelopments
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| posted on 22/6/10 at 09:24 PM |
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Thanks for all your input guys especially Liam, a great post.
I think i am competant to do the whole job, I have got the correct cable, got a 17th edition double rcd box with the correct rated mcbs for the house.
At the moment the wires are all visable( some more than others as a couple of ceiling are down), nothing is connected up just routed (also got shower
and cooker to route still) I am trying to find a local registered spark who I want to come and see the wires for himself and give me his opinion, I
also am quite willing for him to connect up consumer unit as he may prefer it and as long as funds allow.
I have my old schooler on hand to check it over and also my dad is a keen diyer in elecs. but he is recovering from triple bypass atm. I want it done
the correct way so nothing can come back on me or anyone else.
Thanks again
Rob
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