splitrivet
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 12:44 PM |
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Feed in Tariff rate
Just been working at a solar energy place and its been announced that the Gov's been overruled for the feed in tariff rate back up to 43p, kit
must be installed by beginning of March though. Might be useful if your thinking of going for solar.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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jossey
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 12:57 PM |
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good news :O)
http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/23458/updated-1145-uk-government-loses-feedin-tariff-appeal/
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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JoelP
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 01:04 PM |
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bad news, for everyone who doesnt have them.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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jossey
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 01:43 PM |
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its good news for you cos if you buy them now you should get about £800 back in feed in tariff a year and save say £150-200 in leccy.
Plus its guaranteed for 25 years.
£800 x 25 = £20,000
Plus £200 * 25 = £5,000
Fit the panels yourself 2kw should cost less than £5,000
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
bad news, for everyone who doesnt have them.
[Edited on 25/1/12 by jossey]
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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Agriv8
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 01:50 PM |
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Not for us that have houses that have a pitched roof's that points north / south.
regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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craig1410
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 02:02 PM |
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Even at 43p per kwh, I still think the smart move is to wait until the cost of panels and installation comes down a good bit. I don't think the
higher feed in tariff will cover the reduction in installation cost which is likely to happen naturally through commoditisation and economy of scale.
Early adopters will pay a premium in the long term in my opinion. Similar situation to electric cars sadly.
Don't get me wrong, I would ordinarily be very keen to go PV solar but living in central Scotland and having a house with limited south facing
roof area, only adds to my economic concerns about it. For me, solar hot water heating would be a better bet as we use a lot of hot water in our
house.
I'd be very interested to hear of any solid data which contradicts my concerns. I've not run the numbers properly, just some quick sums in
my head which could very easily be incorrect. I'd like to look at, say, a 20 year horizon. Person 1 buys just now at, say £12k install cost and
43p feed in rate. Person 2 waits 3 years and buys the same capacity system at £5k install cost but with a lower feed in tariff. I'm not sure of
the duration of the 43p feed in tariff contract, whether it is for life or x number of years. Also, I'm not sure how many kwh on AVERAGE
ANNUALLY, you would get from a £12k size installation. It will vary by latitude and sunshine hours of course but perhaps we can assume the climate of
Manchester to split the regional difference. Anyone able to fill in any of the variables to carry out this analysis? My £12k now / £5k in 3 years
estimate is off the top of my head but I doubt it will be far off. I'd like to see a break even analysis over the 20 year horizon, taking
account of all factors including opportunity cost of tying up the investment cash in PV hardware. I'd suggest 5% per annum for that financing as
it could be argued that you could remortgage to pay for the install cost and then recover some cash when you sell your house. 5% seems a realistic
long term mortgage rate.
Anyone?
C.
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russbost
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 02:19 PM |
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Seriously guys, if you're staying in the same property for the next 6 years or so & you have the funds available do it now!
I had my 4kWh installation fitted & running on Nov 19th, cost £10k. Dec & Jan are 2 months of the year when the panels are supposed to do very
little (about 4% of your annual output), my roof is not ideal facing almost directly SW & also being partly shaded, however even so & even at
this time of year in the first 2 months (to 19th Jan) it's generated around 80kWh, now I've only run very rough figures, but even at that
rate it's about the same as leaving the money in the building society. Output in the Summer months should be about 6 - 8 times that rate so it
cannot fail to payback quickly.
Bear in mind that all the income from the panels is tax free, it can only ever go up from the 43p tarif which is guaranteed for 25 years, the panels
are guaranteed to 80% of their output in 25 years. On top of the 43p, you get another 3p per unit on 50% of the output (for what you're feeding
back in) & on top of that you are making savings on your electric bills as well, it really is a no brainer.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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motorcycle_mayhem
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 02:38 PM |
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Very envious, some of us can plan for 6 years..... jumping from redundancy through unemployment, through redundancy every 6 months... Just makes me
feel inadequate again. More depression, Hey ho.
Solar power/panels may well serve the wealthy, at the expense of those unwealthy (those who end up paying the 'subsidy' . So yep, if
you've got some cash around why not? Not enough money? - have another few kids for the benefits...
I haven't seen the sun for a long time, but there's plenty of wind around - is there a Wind Turbine scheme?
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splitrivet
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 02:47 PM |
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If youve got some savings sitting in a bank/building society earning bugger all its a no brainer, where else can you get that rate without taking a
humungus risk.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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Snuggs
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 03:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jossey
its good news for you cos if you buy them now you should get about £800 back in feed in tariff a year and save say £150-200 in leccy.
Plus its guaranteed for 25 years.
£800 x 25 = £20,000
Plus £200 * 25 = £5,000
Fit the panels yourself 2kw should cost less than £5,000
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
bad news, for everyone who doesnt have them.
[Edited on 25/1/12 by jossey]
I thought you only got paid if they were installed by a registered installer ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 03:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Snuggs
quote:
Originally posted by jossey
its good news for you cos if you buy them now you should get about £800 back in feed in tariff a year and save say £150-200 in leccy.
Plus its guaranteed for 25 years.
£800 x 25 = £20,000
Plus £200 * 25 = £5,000
Fit the panels yourself 2kw should cost less than £5,000
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
bad news, for everyone who doesnt have them.
[Edited on 25/1/12 by jossey]
I thought you only got paid if they were installed by a registered installer ?
Very true. No DIY on these I'm afraid. Have to be certified by a registered installer, and an electrician who's certified to do the
electrical setup.
If you've got a mate who's a registered installer, then good luck to you.
As for the poor paying for the rich who can afford these, that's simply not true. Why do you think the Govt wanted to stop the high tariff? The
money comes from central govt and they get it from the EU slush fund.
Cheers,
Nev.
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craig1410
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 04:06 PM |
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Hi,
Just to help answer some of my own question, I got a quote for a £12k loan over 10 years and the repayments are £126.63 per month. That is £1519.56
per year just to pay back the capital cost over 10 years. I couldn't get a quote over 25 years but lets assume it is half that amount per year =
£ 760 per year to get back from feed in tariff before you break even. That is 1767 kwh per year or an average of 147 kwh per month or an average of
4.8 kwh per day.
Even if you don't need to borrow money and have savings, I'd expect you could get 5% return on savings if you were prepared to tie up the
money for 25 years!
I am yet to be convinced...maybe in 3 to 5 years.
C.
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Humbug
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 04:26 PM |
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It's not as straightforward as it might seem unless you plan to be in the same house for 25 years, surely? If, for whatever reason, you
move/have to move in say 3 years, is the buyer going to pay a premium based on what you spent on installation and what you were expecting to save/earn
in the following 22 years?
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 04:44 PM |
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Installer has to be MCS accredited, Panels have to be on the approved MCS equipment list.
Costs at the moment are about £3,500.00 per kWp comes down to around £2,500.00 for very large installations.
Payback period is about 10-15 years.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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steve8274
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 04:49 PM |
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what about the companies who were offering panels for "free"
i know you dont get the feed in tariff but you should still benefit from the free electric.
this is what i was planning on doing until the government quoshed the rates. couldnt afford the panels myself
i was going through eon
steve
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Snuggs
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 06:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve8274
what about the companies who were offering panels for "free"
i know you dont get the feed in tariff but you should still benefit from the free electric.
this is what i was planning on doing until the government quoshed the rates. couldnt afford the panels myself
i was going through eon
steve
I looked into this a while ago and IF you plan to live there for 25 years then go for it.
However if you plan on moving you either have to compensate the company for the loss of income AND pay to have the system removed or persuade your
house buyer to take over the contract.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/snuggstcb
Spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does.
I doubt therefore I may be.
Luposlipophobia : Fear of being chased by wolves around a freshly waxed kitchen floor, while wearing only socks on your feet.
My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely!
http://www.venganza.org
http://www.jesusandmo.net/
http://www.snuggs.co.uk
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JoelP
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 07:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
As for the poor paying for the rich who can afford these, that's simply not true. Why do you think the Govt wanted to stop the high tariff? The
money comes from central govt and they get it from the EU slush fund.
Cheers,
Nev.
Are you sure there neville? I thought that the money comes from the energy suppliers, who recoup it from all their customers. Google seems to agree,
though there isnt much about it.
If it does come from the energy companies, then it is very much just another scheme to help people with spare cash get richer at the expense of those
who cannot afford to join in.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 07:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
As for the poor paying for the rich who can afford these, that's simply not true. Why do you think the Govt wanted to stop the high tariff? The
money comes from central govt and they get it from the EU slush fund.
Cheers,
Nev.
Are you sure there neville? I thought that the money comes from the energy suppliers, who recoup it from all their customers. Google seems to agree,
though there isnt much about it.
If it does come from the energy companies, then it is very much just another scheme to help people with spare cash get richer at the expense of those
who cannot afford to join in.
Feed in tariff is paid by energy companies, energy companies get their money from customers (that is you and me).
http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/FITs/principles/funding/
even if it did come from an EU slush fund, where do you think that money comes from, the fairies?
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russbost
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 08:58 PM |
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"Feed in tariff is paid by energy companies, energy companies get their money from customers (that is you and me)."
Which is another reason for fitting panels if you possibly can - as the money comes from the energy companies (& the payment rate of the F.I.T.
is, quite frankly, ridiculously high - that's why I've had panels fitted!) which way do you think energy bills are going to go when the
energy companies have to start paying out to all of us who've had them installed? So when prices go up that makes the saving on future energy
prices all the more important & is another reason for fitting.
It's pointless arguing about poor paying for rich etc., you might just as well say that anyone who pays 40% tax (no I don't!) is paying
for other peoples child allowance or something! That's a completely different political debate which I don't want to get into!
The scheme is there whether you like it or not & if you either can't or won't take part in it then you'll finish up contributing
towards the payments to those who do! (unless you live in a tent with a woodburner perhaps!!)
I would strongly urge any of you that can lay hands on the funds (or most of the funds & top the balance up with a small loan) to do so before the
next tarif change in March. Judging by the output from my panels so far I will be surprised if the panels don't make/save me £1200 this year,
that's 12% interest & remember it's completely tax free & it has a built in escalation factor that increases year by year, hence
the panels should pay for themselves within around 7 to 8 years, after which they will continue to make money for a further 17 to 18 years &
continue to save money virtually indefinitely whether it's for me or someone else.
Besides saving/making money, take the scenario where you have 2 identical houses in a street except one has solar panels the other doesn't, one
therefore has a tax free income of over £1000pa & savings on electricity, the other doesn't - which would you be prepared to pay more for???
I could even see it making a small difference to how much you could get on mortgage as it is effectively an increase in income before tax of around
£1300+pa, & electricity savings to boot.
All of course IMHO
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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JoelP
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 09:51 PM |
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We're basically making the same point russ - its brilliant for those who can afford it. I can accept that people with spare cash can invest and
make more, that is afterall the basis of a free capitalist economy, however im annoyed that the government has initially made the tariffs so high that
it is a disproportionally high return on your investment, funded by everyone else.
I'd rather see a tax on fossil fuels than subsidies on other energies.
And another thing that bugs me is the drive to microgeneration. Havent they heard of the economies of scale?
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 10:09 PM |
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+1
They did try to bring the tariff back into line, but couldn't do it legally.
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MikeR
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 10:17 PM |
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Something I don't get .......... could you get the smallest, cheapest installation now and then add to it later when you've got more
money?
and what does it cost to generate 1kw/hr of power via other means - for example if you got a cheap aldi generator and ran it for a hour how much power
would it generate compared to the cost of fuel? what about a steam engine, water turbine etc cause if you've got the connection and electrical
gubbins whats stopping you?
Re microgeneration - you're right about economies of scale but you've also got transmission losses to take into account.
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russbost
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 10:17 PM |
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Please don't get me wrong, I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever seen done by any government (I think generated by the
previous mob, but not sure), shows a total lack of understanding of the whole scenario from small scale thro' to installation costs etc.
It's just that now it's done you're either "one of the gang" or you're putting your hand in your pocket! But
if you're able to I would encourage anyone to join in that can - I do agree that for those that can't join in (any of my kids for example
who are all at Uni - Ahh! & there's another government story!!!) it is completely unfair
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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JoelP
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| posted on 25/1/12 at 10:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
Something I don't get .......... could you get the smallest, cheapest installation now and then add to it later when you've got more
money?
and what does it cost to generate 1kw/hr of power via other means - for example if you got a cheap aldi generator and ran it for a hour how much power
would it generate compared to the cost of fuel? what about a steam engine, water turbine etc cause if you've got the connection and electrical
gubbins whats stopping you?
Re microgeneration - you're right about economies of scale but you've also got transmission losses to take into account.
I believe that you cannot add to the installation later.
Also, they dont actually measure what you generate, they just assume that half of it goes back in and pay the extra 3p for that.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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craig1410
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| posted on 26/1/12 at 01:11 AM |
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Sorry Russ but nothing you have said helps to convince me that this is anywhere close to a no-brainer. In fact I still doubt that the break even point
will be any sooner than 10 or 12 years after installation by which time technology will have most likely moved on to much better PV panels and other
methods of energy collection.
By your own figures, as things stand today you have generated 80kwh, or £34.40 worth of electricity in 2 months, albeit I fully understand this is the
winter months. By my reckoning, if you had put your £10000 in a savings account (moneysavingexpert.com shows you can get 4.8% on a five year deal) you
would have £10080 after 2 months (£480pa -> £40pm). More importantly, your £10000 is still there too, albeit locked away for 5 years at a time.
What many people don't understand is that when you buy an asset (car, boat, PV panels) the asset's value doesn't stay fixed over its
lifetime, it drops. It usually drops as soon as you buy the asset because you can't simply sell it back without making a loss and in the case of
PV, there are installation costs over and above the panel purchase. Also, over the lifetime of the asset (say 25 years) it depreciates to essentially
scrap value. Also, I seriously doubt that your house price will be increased by £10k due to having £10k of PV panels installed. Perhaps £4k initially
but not £10k.
So, in order to break even, you need to be generating enough electricity to cover the cost of recovering the capital cost PLUS the amount that you
would have gained if you had just put the money in a savings account.
So, assuming there will always be a 5% savings deal available somewhere, £10000 placed in a bank account for 25 years at 5% would be worth £34812.90
(web link below). So in order to break even, this is the value of electricity which must be generated in those same 25 years just to break even,
assuming the PV cells themselves are practically worthless after 25 years. That comes to 80960 kWh which is 3238 kWh / year which is 8.87 kWh per day.
According to the website link below (randomly googled), the maximum daily rate this 3.29kw system based in the south of England managed to achieve was
just short of 8.5kwh/day. It's close to breaking even and would probably do so given that the 43p FIT is index linked. However, it is far from
being a no-brainer as I said above and it's doubtful if anything like 8.5kwh/day would be achieved for me in central Scotland or even in mid to
north England. Perhaps I'm missing some other factor(s), hence my invitation to work this out properly in my earlier post. My cost/benefit model
is far from perfect I'm quite sure of that but I've yet to see anything better. I even searched the web for some cost/benefit analysis
data but couldn't find anything substantial.
Anyway, Russ I don't mean to seem like I'm trying to pour cold water on your PV panels (so to speak) but I just want to gain a better
understanding of the pros and cons before I would feel comfortable taking the plunge. My mind is open to learn if anyone can provide objective
information to contradict my own admittedly trivial analysis above.
Cheers,
Craig.
Source of interest calculator: http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm
Source of daily PV output: http://www.alternative-energy.co.uk/Daily%20Outputs.html
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