dern
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 01:39 PM |
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Welding power supply advice
I've just ordered a clarke 150TE Turbo welder and it suggests that it needs a 20Amp supply to run on full power so I'm putting a 20Amp
socket in the garage.
Do I need an RCD for a welder?
Thanks,
Mark
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timf
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 01:56 PM |
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if the supply is unfused then i would say for your own safety it would be advisable
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dern
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 02:01 PM |
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The supply will be housed in a new consumer unit rated at 63 amps and the supply will be from a new 20Amp MCB so it will, in effect be a dedicated
supply fused at 20 amps I would have thought.
Mark
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simonH
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 02:04 PM |
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i had a similar concern about my new welder. the building electrician in or office assured me that the requirement is for the breaker on the ciruit
not the socket. a 13amp socket and fuse is fine aslong as it is on 20 amp+ breaker. RCD may not be very good on a welder as RCD's cut out when
they detect an earth. Mig welders work by arcing the supply to earth
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dern
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| posted on 17/9/04 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by simonH
i had a similar concern about my new welder. the building electrician in or office assured me that the requirement is for the breaker on the ciruit
not the socket. a 13amp socket and fuse is fine aslong as it is on 20 amp+ breaker. RCD may not be very good on a welder as RCD's cut out when
they detect an earth. Mig welders work by arcing the supply to earth
Cool, that's exactly what I needed to know. I'm going to put
a new consumer unit and MCB in anyway though just in case it does ever throw the breaker because I don't want to plunge the house into darkness
or turn off the supply to my pcs etc.
Cheers,
Mark
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dern
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 11:51 AM |
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Had a good think and the welder was delivered and had a flick through the manual.
The manual says that is must not be wired into a 13amp plug but must be wired into a 15amp plug. The suppliers (welders warehouse -
http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/... £189 incl vat for a 151te btw) say 20amp supply and machine mart say 30amp supply.
So for now I'm going to stick a 13amp plug on it to practice tomorrow on some 3mm strip as it won't be running at full power but I will be
wiring in a new MCB (30 amp) in a new consumer unit and wiring that to an industrial type 32amp socket and putting an appropriate plug on the welder.
I'm also making up a 10m extension lead with the same 32amp plugs and sockets so I can use the welder on the drive. All this stuff can be had
from TLC direct if you want to go the same route.
On reflection I'm a bit confused about what your electrician is suggesting. The circuit may well be rated at 20amps but surely that's
available through all the sockets on that circuit. If you pull 15-20amps through the one socket you'll surely blow the 13amp fuse I would have
thought.
Regards,
Mark
[Edited on 18/9/04 by dern]
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binraker
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 04:02 PM |
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these things work on the weakest link principle. although a 13amp device is plugged into 13amp socket wich is in turn wired to a 32amp breaker (or
16amp if its a dedicated suply, eg to a garage) the device is accctually conected to the incoming supply by 3 fuses (or MCBs or a combo. a 60A before
the meter, 32A in the "consumer unit" and 13A in the plug). the weakest is rated to 13 amp so that one will blow if the device fails. the
sum of all the items on the curcuit could be more than 13A, eg 2 electric fires at 3kW each, and so the curcuit can usually take up to 32A.
in the case of settin up a dedicated supply for a welder, i would sugest a 32A breaker or RCD in the consumer unit with a dedicated cable to a 32A
switched BS4343 (thats the big blue red or yellow plugs (blue=240V, red=415V and yellow=110V (ignoring white, grey, purple and green, cause youll
prolly never use them))) preferably with an interlock if you have anyone else with you when you are working, especially childern (of all ages) as this
means they cant pull the plug out when its turned on (big flash and bang if you are unlucky with that big an inductive load)
go to www.rs.com and search for bs4343
what is it about me that makes me look like i know what im doing????
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binraker
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 04:12 PM |
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rs product no 352-2682
expensive but could save your life.
people always sugest putting in more capacity than needed, and for good reson. my pillar drill runs quite happily drawing about 5A max but the surge
when you turn it on is about 10A, this is the same for a lot of things. i was talking to a friend working on a piece of machenery recently which ran
at 100A per phase on a 3 phase suppply but on startup the RFI generated caused all the on board computers to crash and stop the auto load balance
system. this was due to one phase drawing 600A, one drawing 800A and one drawing 1200A. so even if you can run a welder at 15A continuously, it could
draw 30A for a fraction of a second on start up. MCBs tend to trip on this where as a fusewire has a thermal low pass efect causing the spike, so long
as it is short enough, to pass. i know lots of people who have stuff on MEM EXEL swichfuses cause they dont trip when you turn them on.
just my 2p
[Edited on 18/9/04 by binraker]
what is it about me that makes me look like i know what im doing????
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dern
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 08:35 PM |
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Thanks Binraker. I have gone for the 32amp sockets and so on but didn't think about the interlock I must admit.
Mark
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binraker
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| posted on 18/9/04 at 08:54 PM |
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as welders are inductive, i sugest you put a little notice next to the switch to warn people not to pull out the plug when you are wusing it. the
misses getting anoyed with you for not coming in for dinner might get a fright when she pulls the plug on you.
just a thought
[Edited on 18/9/04 by binraker]
what is it about me that makes me look like i know what im doing????
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scully
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 10:39 AM |
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so does the welder come with a 13amp plug?
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ned
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 10:52 AM |
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welder don't normally come with a plug on.
i've got a clark 160t and i've used it on full power on a long extention lead on a 13amp plug and it has performed faultlessly. maybe not
the correct/safest, but i haven't had any probs and my chassis is now finished!
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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JamJah
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 11:08 AM |
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With any largish welder particulary MIGs, I would use 16amp sockets and extentions. I made a 15 metre extersion and wired the socket up to but not
inot the consumer unit for about £20. Thats a wall female, a trailing female and a trailing male with 16 meters of cabling.
It means that I dont have to worry about fuses, Its all done on the trips.
But then I do work in theatre so have the backwards theosphy (my spelling is terrible today) that fuses ad trips should all be accessible and kept to
as few as possible (as long you have have suffient present).
To be honest my welder uses 15 amps so wouldnt wanna push it on 13, and domestically (rather than at work) a 16 amp socket is of more use then a 15
amp.
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AdamR
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 11:56 AM |
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Like Ned, I run my 151TE off a standard 13A plug on a long extension (which I keep fully unravelled). I regularly go up to full power and have had no
problems. Done approx 75% of chassis so far...
[Edited on 12/4/05 by AdamR]
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MikeR
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 12:06 PM |
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I also have a 151TE. I regularly run it on a 13 amp plug up to power setting 5 .....
i haven't got the guts to run it on 6 as the socket also provides my light. I know of another builder who has run a 151 at full power on a 13
amp socket.
Mine from machine mart came with a 13 amp plug already fitted.
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scully
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| posted on 12/4/05 at 12:12 PM |
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i was going to order a clarke 151teturbo until it said it needs a 30 amp supply (machine mart) but if you good peaple have had no probs then thats the
welder for me thanks again
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NS Dev
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 10:30 AM |
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I used to have a Clarke 150 TE and it ran on full power until it's thermal trip cut in on std power socket no problem.
I now have a 210 amp industrial mig and this runs on exactly the same, though at full blast it blows 13 amp fuses. I won't say how I get round
this on here (not the done thing put it that way!), but the spur that feeds my garage has a 50amp MCB on it (10mm cable) and the consumer unit that
feeds it has an RCD in it which I would not run without, it could save your life, regardless of fusing!
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dern
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 02:33 PM |
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13A plug - just because people do it doesn't mean that it's right or indeed safe.
I put in a seperate MCB and used the 32Amp big blue (240v) sockets and plugs and have had no problems. It didn't cost much, was easy to do and
works correctly.
Regards,
Mark
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MikeR
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 05:30 PM |
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Perhaps I should add, the ring that feeds my garage has a 32amp mcb, the spur has a 13amp fuse, the socket in the wall has a 13amp rcd .....
so i'm pretty well protected 
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NS Dev
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| posted on 14/4/05 at 08:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dern
13A plug - just because people do it doesn't mean that it's right or indeed safe.
I put in a seperate MCB and used the 32Amp big blue (240v) sockets and plugs and have had no problems. It didn't cost much, was easy to do and
works correctly.
Regards,
Mark
This is all fine in your workshop but not that many people have the big blue sockets. So when I go off welding for other people (not so much recently
but used to do a fair bit) it can be an issue. I suppose an adaptor extension lead would do the trick but I have never ever had any issue using a 13
amp plug with any 240 volt welder that I have used (and that is a fair few!)
My RCD stops me killing myself and all my wiring is within the rating of the 50 amp mcb, up to the sockets.
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dern
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| posted on 15/4/05 at 07:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS DevThis is all fine in your workshop but not that many people have the big blue sockets. So when I go off
welding for other people (not so much recently but used to do a fair bit) it can be an issue.
Fair point.
Mark
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craig1410
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| posted on 20/4/05 at 08:55 PM |
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I remember one night out in the garage welding away quite happily when I shorted my gas shield, which had become live, to my chassis. The welder
groaned and my fusebox tripped taking the lights with it. I went from bright lights to pitch black in a split second. Unfortunately I was at the far
end of my garage with tools all over the floor between me and the fusebox...
Cheers,
Craig.
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MikeR
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| posted on 20/4/05 at 08:58 PM |
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which is why legally your lights should be on a difference circuit to your power ......
of course what you're supposed to do and what is in my garage are quite different although normally i leave the garage door open when
i'm working in there.
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owelly
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| posted on 24/4/05 at 08:48 PM |
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I went a bit silly when I rewired my place. Each room in the house (incl. garage) has two seperate circuits for lights (ie one for wall lights, one
for ceilings) and at least two circuits for sockets!!
If something goes a bit wrong (for example, when a family of slugs kept fusing half my kitching) I still have some of the sockets working!! If i trip
the one of the lights in my garage (usually by stabbing a fitting with a sharp stick or similar!) I can still watch Emmerdale(or similar)
But thats just me. I have my welders flat out for far too long plugged into the 13amp socket and I'm not dead yet........
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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craig1410
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| posted on 24/4/05 at 09:02 PM |
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Mike,
My consumer unit in the garage does have separate circuits for the lights and sockets but unfortunately it is all driven from a spur on my house ring
main and it was this which tripped. I have a 32A MCB for the sockets and a 16A MCB for the lights but the MCB in the house tripped before the one in
the garage on this occasion. The MCB's are all standard size so I swapped them around so that hopefully next time the garage one will trip
first...
Cheers,
Craig.
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