CharlesZ
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| posted on 30/8/16 at 07:42 PM |
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Is there any market to sell a locost-esque car?
Hey guys, I'm a long time lurker and I'd really appreciate your opinion on this idea I have.
I've got a friend that's built a few Locosts before and he's just recently started building an Ariel Atom clone (He's also
doing all the CAD from scratch even though there are existing plans). He's tying to keep it as Locost-like as possible in the sense that he
wants to follow Ron Chapman's philosophy. When I stopped to think about how much it'd cost him to build, it made me ask myself why
everyone who's a car enthusiast doesn't have one. The only issue I thought about is how you would have little to no respect in car
communities but why couldn't we just design something that's just as appealing and has an identity of it's own?
This is the idea that my friend and I have that we are trying to figure out the viability of. We are trying to see how big the market is (or if there
even is one) internationally for such a car. I live in South Africa so labour and materials are relatively inexpensive (and our exchange rate makes
everything much more favourable for foreigners buying). My friend and I believe that we should be able to reach a selling price of R300,000 (which is
£15779 or $20635) comfortably and this would include the labour of the worker(s) we would hire. I'm sure you guys probably know of
Birkin which is a South African company.
We have enough startup capital so that even if we aren't making a profit for a long time we will be fine.
Red tape might be a bit difficult to sort out but it's definitely possible. It's possible to register as a car manufacturer in South
Africa and as long as we make sure the car will pass an MOT test it should be possible to export it anywhere.
I will have most of next year off so I will be able to dedicate myself to the project. At the end of that period I can either decide to not continue
with my normal work and dedicate myself to the project or decide to only work part time and work on the project in my spare time.
Another big reason that building a clone isn't possible is that we'd probably get sued before we started. We've got some cool ideas
for some cars that, like mentioned previously, would be just as appealing and have the same element of excitement as the Atom but at a fraction of the
cost. We were thinking that a closed car with gullwing doors would be cool (I'm aware of a few issues but I'm sure we can solve them).
I take pride in everything I make (I would consider myself a perfectionist) and I would see every car built as an extension of me. For this reason I
have no doubt that we wouldn't produce anything but the highest quality cars.
The only issue remaining then is if there is a market. I understand that the whole purpose of this community is that you'd rather build a car
yourself but your advice would be invaluable. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this idea in general and if you think there is a market. I'd
appreciate it if you could give me your honest opinion even if that means being harsh.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 30/8/16 at 08:23 PM |
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Good on you for looking into this with open eyes.
Just a couple of pointers - if it is atomesque car you are developing your biggest rival will be the MeV rocket, version 2 is currently undergoing
final tests by Stuart mills using the toyota 1.8l 190 HP engine from the Corolla/celica, nite the nose on mk2 is more like the atom than the cattle
grid on the mk1. Thus can easily be built and registered for less than your £15k budget. Also search out the asbo car project, three of these were
built iirc. Also at the upper end is the deronda and also the Subaru powered sdr Storm wr3.
Are you intending registering the cars in SA and then shipping them over, in the uk you will need a nova certificate I think or it will need to go
through an IVA test which is way more than an mot. You will also need to figure in 20% sales tax (vat) and an import tax (not sure what this is) plus
shipping costs.
When you have some sketches and specs then I am sure the members on here will give you loads of views.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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CharlesZ
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| posted on 30/8/16 at 08:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Good on you for looking into this with open eyes.
Just a couple of pointers - if it is atomesque car you are developing your biggest rival will be the MeV rocket, version 2 is currently undergoing
final tests by Stuart mills using the toyota 1.8l 190 HP engine from the Corolla/celica, nite the nose on mk2 is more like the atom than the cattle
grid on the mk1. Thus can easily be built and registered for less than your £15k budget. Also search out the asbo car project, three of these were
built iirc. Also at the upper end is the deronda and also the Subaru powered sdr Storm wr3.
Are you intending registering the cars in SA and then shipping them over, in the uk you will need a nova certificate I think or it will need to go
through an IVA test which is way more than an mot. You will also need to figure in 20% sales tax (vat) and an import tax (not sure what this is) plus
shipping costs.
When you have some sketches and specs then I am sure the members on here will give you loads of views.
Thanks for all the advice. Surely if the car is already registered by a registered car manufacturer then it won't need to go through the IVA?
I'll have to research the UK's regulations.
I wasn't planning on selling it as a kit though. Only really as a turnkey solution.
I'm definitely going to try do some modelling when I get a chance but my schedule for the near future looks busy.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 30/8/16 at 09:02 PM |
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Have a read of this, it might help but it may also confuse. Looks like unless it is EU type approved then it will need IVA. I guess this may change
when we go through with article 50.
https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/overview
If selling turnkey then I would look to establish a home market first then export later. This way you have credibility. Also it may help if it is
eligible for a race series and have entered (and won as a bonus) in SA, again lends credibility to the performance, most uk manufacturers support use
of their cars in race series.
Would you be looking to sell through a uk agent?
Just another couple of opinions from me.
[Edited on 30/8/16 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 08:08 AM |
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Just my 2p,s worth.
the markets are awash with 7 style cars,the world apart from maybe BMW has gone front wheel drive so trannies and diffs are in short suply,why not go
for something mid engined with some bodywork to make the care more daily useable.
i sold my last 7 (built 3 of them) as they just sat in the garage,bought a couple of Mazda MX5,s and use it daily,it has a roof and heater and is just
as much fun but a lot more comfort that a 7 or exo could ever have.
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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Ugg10
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 10:09 AM |
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Something like the Kosmo which seemed to get quite a way down the engineering track but did not attract crowd or competition dragons den) funding.
Looks like a ready made project to pick up/invest in and manufacture (ish).
http://www.kozmo.pl/en/
Closest thing to what theconrodkid is suggesting was probably the GTM Libra Spyder. Not sure where the moulds for this are but may be worth
resurrecting.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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CharlesZ
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 05:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Have a read of this, it might help but it may also confuse. Looks like unless it is EU type approved then it will need IVA. I guess this may change
when we go through with article 50.
https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/overview
If selling turnkey then I would look to establish a home market first then export later. This way you have credibility. Also it may help if it is
eligible for a race series and have entered (and won as a bonus) in SA, again lends credibility to the performance, most uk manufacturers support use
of their cars in race series.
Would you be looking to sell through a uk agent?
Just another couple of opinions from me.
[Edited on 30/8/16 by Ugg10]
I think selling though an agent would probably be the best. Especially if it wouldn't be possible to get it EU approved.
quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
Just my 2p,s worth.
the markets are awash with 7 style cars,the world apart from maybe BMW has gone front wheel drive so trannies and diffs are in short suply,why not go
for something mid engined with some bodywork to make the care more daily useable.
i sold my last 7 (built 3 of them) as they just sat in the garage,bought a couple of Mazda MX5,s and use it daily,it has a roof and heater and is just
as much fun but a lot more comfort that a 7 or exo could ever have.
Yeah, I think a mid engined car would definitley be better; Just like the Atom. I'm trying for something bare (in terms of body work) like the
atom but still has a closed cockpit.
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 05:20 PM |
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Charles,i had the hots for the R1ot as it was a bit diferent but still no screen or roof,i know the bodywork would be the hard bit so how about a bike
engined FIAT 500 clone (take a mould off an original),slap a blade lump in the back,original lights and glass could be used..... happy days 
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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CharlesZ
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 05:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theconrodkid
Charles,i had the hots for the R1ot as it was a bit diferent but still no screen or roof,i know the bodywork would be the hard bit so how about a bike
engined FIAT 500 clone (take a mould off an original),slap a blade lump in the back,original lights and glass could be used..... happy days
Haha great idea but not quite what I'm going for . I can't imagine a group of professional racers going around a race track in Fiat 500s
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 31/8/16 at 06:03 PM |
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one make race series ?,you supply the kit,they build and race them,plenty sillouete cars used in hillclimbing,they wont be slow with a 1000cc bike
engine ,that is for sure.
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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CharlesZ
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| posted on 3/9/16 at 12:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CharlesZ
Ron Chapman's philosophy.
Oops. Only saw this now. *facepalm*
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CharlesZ
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| posted on 3/9/16 at 01:00 PM |
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Does anybody know what Birkin does when they export to countries like the UK with regards to the registration? Did they somehow get EU approval? Do
they get an agent to put it through IVA or does the owner have to IVA it?
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Ugg10
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| posted on 3/9/16 at 02:39 PM |
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Iirc the only kit cars that have got eu approval are caterham and Westfield. To get this you need to do crash tests which obviously is a big
investment. Birkin sold through a uk agent iirc and also sold in kits. Birkin where about when sva was in place (not IVA) which was an easier test
than IVA but kits were left to the individual, not sure about fully built cars though. There used to be limits that a manufacturer could put through
sva (100 comes to mind) before they were forced to go through type approval, the clue was in the name -single (individual) vehicle approval.
[Edited on 3/9/16 by Ugg10]
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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