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Author: Subject: Spluttering when reved... TB's and Emerald
furryeggs

posted on 8/8/17 at 08:08 PM Reply With Quote
Spluttering when reved... TB's and Emerald

I have a 2.0 blacktop on hayabusa throttle bodies running emerald k3 ecu. I've re wired my TPS as the wires were mixed about an re set it on the ecu. It fires and ticks over first time and after a minute on tick over my lambda levels off to 14.7. When I go to rev the engine it splutters and tries to stall almost instantly, then levels back off again. I'm pretty sure it's a fuelling issue but as I'm no emerald wizz I'm not sure where to start.

I have got the TB's almost balanced across all 4 but they are still out a little as mid adjustment i noticed a loose screw on no4 that now tightened has scewed things off a little. Does anyone have a a base map they could send me. I have a laptop with maps on it but they all run the same when loaded.


cheers

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 06:08 AM Reply With Quote
What injectors are you using? If you PM me your email address I have a couple of maps I am send you
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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 06:14 AM Reply With Quote
u2u sent.
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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 06:32 AM Reply With Quote
I'm using the hayabusa injectors on a danst manifold. It was reving ok but a little rough before the TPS was was reset to emeralds
Instructions. I think that maybe because it wasn't wired right the ecu wasn't running the fuel correctly/not leaning off, it was running rich and smoking (13 lambda). Now the TPS is wired it's doing the opposite, tick over settles at 14.7 and up to 17 lambda when revved.


2.0 blacktop
1300 hayabusa TB's and Injecors
Emerald K3 ECU
Innovate LC-2 lambda.
Crank, TPS, air temp, and coolant sensors

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 07:27 AM Reply With Quote
I've been through a similar thing myself with a similar set up on my car, I'll send you some maps later when I'm at my other laptop, couple of questions though:

- Have you set the TPS up - the min value and the WOT value?
- Have you scaled the injectors on the base map for the Hayabusa TBs? CC per min etc?
- Have you been running it just closed loop or adaptive looping?
- Is the wideband set up in the Emerald software correctly?
- When you open the throttle a little bit can you get it to idle steady at say 2krpm? What does lambda do then?

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:11 AM Reply With Quote
-TPS was set from the Emerald setup page 293/903. (inverted it reads 26/143)
-Not sure about scaling injectors, the ecu came programmed/running on the same set up as mine
-I have had it running both closed loop on narrow band and adaptive on Wideband, ran rich on narrow and lean on adaptive.
-The ECU seems to be reading the lambda correctly. I've not adjusted anything yet as I'm still trying to digure it out
-I could get it to rev to a smokey rich 2k when running narrow band, 12-13 AFR.
It spluters and revs to 2k on wideband but leans off to 16+ AFR and trys to stall.

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:50 AM Reply With Quote
-TPS was set from the Emerald setup page 293/903. (inverted it reads 26/143)
Ok we'll assume that's okay then

-Not sure about scaling injectors, the ecu came programmed/running on the same set up as mine
This could quite possibly be the issue, have a look at your injectors there should be some part number on them somewhere and using this try and find out the CC per min of them - there are tables on the web if you just put the part no in. If the map was supplied by Emerald they have probably put in the front info page of the map what the CC the injectors in that map are. If the two values are different this is probably the problem - there's an option in the software to scale them. For example the base map I used had 250cc vauxhaul injectors but I was using 315cc focus ones - you simply put in the 250cc and also the 315cc and bingo it does it all for you!

-I have had it running both closed loop on narrow band and adaptive on Wideband, ran rich on narrow and lean on adaptive.
If it's running lean on adaptive and it's not fixing itself that suggests that your fuelling is too far off for the wideband to sort out. Have a look at the correction table - if all the fields are empty then it's not sorted itself out. The map needs to be fairly close to start with.

-The ECU seems to be reading the lambda correctly. I've not adjusted anything yet as I'm still trying to digure it out
-I could get it to rev to a smokey rich 2k when running narrow band, 12-13 AFR.
It spluters and revs to 2k on wideband but leans off to 16+ AFR and trys to stall

I would suggest starting with the base map again just in case the adaptive mapping has made a mess of things, set up all the TPS and other sensors etc but keep lambda in the open loop mode so it doesn't adjust the map. It's essential to get the injector CC right too.

One final thing is the fuel pressure, what FPR are you using? The base map will be set to a specific pressure and yours may well be different - again Emerald usually put the fuel pressure in the front page of the map and there is the option to scale the map based on your own fuel pressure. If I remember correctly it's in the same options bit as the "injector scaling"

Let me know how you get on....

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 11:37 AM Reply With Quote
Checking the MAP the injectors are set at 200cc @2.7 bar. In the discription it says 310cc @3bar. I'm pretty sure they are standard gen1 injectors which online info gives anywhere from 240-270cc upto 400cc. now i'm getting confused...

my fuel pressure regulator is adjustable and is set to roughly 3bar

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 11:48 AM Reply With Quote
I think when you open the injector scaling bit in the map it could say anything in there - the fact that it says 200cc and 2.7 bar shouldn't matter. You'll need to put in the 310cc and 3 bar yourself in the current or existing section and then your new values (270cc & 3 bar) and then scale the map.

What FPR are you using? I've heard some horror stories about the cheap adjustable ones of eBay being massively out. It might be worth fitting the stock Hayabusa or Ford one with a known FPR, just a few PSI out can make a mess of things! (Don't ask how I know this )

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 12:08 PM Reply With Quote
It's a none gen adjustable but with a sytec gauge on it. That doesn't mean its reading right though. I'll scale the injectors this afternoon and see what happens, hioefully i can get the TB's synced properly.

I'll look at the FPR then and see if i can sort a gen busa or zetec one.

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 02:06 PM Reply With Quote
Well, that was somewhat successful, not completly but a lot better.
I have re scaled the injectors to 270cc @3bar and re-set the tps again to make sure. Tickover is good at just under 1000rpm TB's still need a little tweek but it rev's more freely and drops back to idle. The only issue now seems to be an occasional puff from one of the inlets, is that still a lack of fuel or to much air?

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 02:16 PM Reply With Quote
Might be worth aligning your TBs now, a puff could be a misaligned TB - it's quite surprising how a small misalignment can make for bad running, especially at lower RPM and idle. Might be worth saving this MAP now as a good starting point, I'd try the wideband again now in adaptive mode - make sure the voltage output graph/range is set correctly in the ECU and it should start learning.

Glad you're having progress though - nothing more satisfying than when it starts to 'sound right'!

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 03:51 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the help Daf.

I can only get the TB's balanced on 3 of the 4cylinders. 1,3 and 4 are all flowing at around 4.5-4.5 on my syncrometer whilst No2 won't budge from 2.5. its reving and idling smoothly and tick over is roughly 900rpm, theres a nice throaty roar from the TB's and no splutering. I need to check the clamps and trumpet are all tight and aligned properly.
I've had a look at the voltage graph but I'm not sure what to change. And i can't seem to get it back into adaptive mode?

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zetec

posted on 9/8/17 at 07:40 PM Reply With Quote
Getting the balancing within a reasonable amount should be easy as purely a physical adjustment. If a cylinder is way off I would check for air leaks etc. Out of balance TBs will cause idle issues and pick up from idle, less effect on wider openings. It only takes a few small things to cause a good engine to run rough. Do you have access to a AFR meter to you can check what is actually happening to the mixture rather than using your existing Lambda sensor and ECU? I used to always fined the best tick over and pick up was with a ratio of 12.5-13 at idle. Also found checking the TPS settings every time I did something on the linkages, only takes seconds and was surprised how it had changed.





" I only registered to look at the pictures, now I'm stuck with this username for the rest of my life!"

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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:04 PM Reply With Quote
I wouldn't recommend having the AFR at 12.5-13 as it will never get through the IVA test. If you're struggling to get that one cylinder to balance as said above I would be looking for an air leak or sticky butterfly etc.

To get it into closed loop mode you need to go into the "injection" tab and then into the tabs above go into "feedback mode" in here you can set each individual speed and load site to be open/closed or adaptive. Select the speed and load sites you want to change and use the + or - keys to change from open loop (white) closed loop (dark green) and adaptive (light green).

To set up the wideband lambda open the "AFR/lambda input calibration" and you'll need to set the input voltage to the corresponding AFR for your wideband controller - this data should be readily available from innovative.

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:14 PM Reply With Quote
I've just been out in the garage for an hour listening to it running and adjusting untill the idle smoothed off, your right it doesn't take a huge amount of adjustment to throw things off. When I put the synchometer in each of the trumpets I had managed to get it at within a fraction of each other, I then tweaked the rest using the syncrometer. It's a nice smooth idle and a clean rev upto 4k. I'll see how it is tomorrow when i drive her I'm planning on going down to a mates garage next week to get the tracking done and lights aligned properly so I'll get him to whack it on the MOT kit and check emmisions etc.

I might have an issue with temps, my fan kicks in at 96 and off at 90 and I'm not sure if this is ok on a zetec, should it run cooler? I need to flush the system again now it's ran for a bit so I can get a different temp switch if i need to.

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:17 PM Reply With Quote
AFR settles around 14ish on tick over
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Daf

posted on 9/8/17 at 08:22 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furryeggs
AFR settles around 14ish on tick over


Might be worth trying to get it a little closer to 14.7 for the IVA test - the limits don't allow you much tolerance at all! You could set the wideband target to 14.7 at idle so that it's always trying to correct itself and you won't have to worry.

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 09:14 PM Reply With Quote
I've got the voltages in the innovate manual so I'll sort that in the morning.

Should i set a closed range 14.7 from idle-a set rpm and the rest at adaptive?

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kingster996

posted on 9/8/17 at 09:30 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furryeggs

I might have an issue with temps, my fan kicks in at 96 and off at 90 and I'm not sure if this is ok on a zetec, should it run cooler? I need to flush the system again now it's ran for a bit so I can get a different temp switch if i need to.


That's spot on for a Zetec. Mine sits at 92 ish when out, and in traffic fan kicks in at 95 (because I told ECU to do that)






I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure

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furryeggs

posted on 9/8/17 at 09:43 PM Reply With Quote
My fan control is off a temp switch in the radiator as this was the easiest way when using the tiger loom, it meant I didn't have to run new wires. My ECU uses the ford temp sensor in the thermostate for its readings and my temp gauge uses a 2nd one in the coolant oioe work.
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Daf

posted on 10/8/17 at 08:46 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by furryeggs
I've got the voltages in the innovate manual so I'll sort that in the morning.

Should i set a closed range 14.7 from idle-a set rpm and the rest at adaptive?


You can play a bit of a Volkswagen trick and set the target AFR around the MOT/IVA area to exactly 14.7, i.e. idle and any RPM with no load, it will always correct around this area for you then.

The rest of the map is up to you, you can make the whole map adaptive if you want - it will always use it's corrections from the correction table but you can apply these corrections if you feel it drives better or delete them if it hasn't helped.

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furryeggs

posted on 10/8/17 at 07:25 PM Reply With Quote
Daf you have an email...

cheers

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furryeggs

posted on 11/8/17 at 01:10 PM Reply With Quote
Well, I seemed to of cocked things up a little. I have entered the new lambda voltages from Innovate into the map and it now runs like a bag of snot, the splutterings back and it dies and stalls when revved.

I've re loaded the original base map voltage settings and double checked everything and it does run better but not as good as I had it yesterday. I'm on nights for the next 4 so won't get much done and I have ordered some 100ohm resistors for the lambda/ecu connection to help smooth things off. All the starting and stopping when programming has drained the battery (fuel pump runs) so thats on charge too.

Plus I've found a few little leaks one of which might scupper my IVA target this year. Hopefully its just an overfilled g/box.

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furryeggs

posted on 11/8/17 at 05:32 PM Reply With Quote
These are the voltage settings from Innovate. The 0v and 5v match the manual but everything else seems to mess up the map. The previous setting were 0v=11,1v=12,2v=13,3v=14,4v=15,5v=16... Putting them back to the original ones have helped but its thrown off the map elsewhere and brought back the stutter and stall.

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