David Jenkins
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| posted on 6/2/06 at 09:23 PM |
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Daewoo Matiz starter & earth strap?
Just had to go out and rescue my wife, 'cos her car wouldn't start - just got a clunk when the key was turned, like a starter that's
not got the poke to turn over. Jump leads didn't do the trick, so in the end we bump started it without problems. To me, it sounded like a bad
connection somewhere - not enough current. Once started, it would happily start quite briskly for all subsequent attempts..
Checked the battery, and the connections are good. The battery voltage is correct - it's fully charged - and the running voltage was good.
I can only think of 2 things - a jammed starter that's now freed off, or a bad connection on the starter or engine earth strap. The question is
- where's the starter, and where's the earth strap! (it's too dark to look this evening).
Can anyone who's looked under a Matiz please tell me where to find these things?
cheers,
David
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britishtrident
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 02:20 PM |
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Could be a connection problem or starter fork problem BUT my prime suspect would be a dead cell in the battery symptoms fit almost exactly.
With a dead cell the car will usually not start if left more than about 10 hours but onece started will run normally and restart all day.
Only way to tell is to do a load test on the battery --- measure the battery voltage under heavy load. Normally you need a tester to do this but it
can be done using the starter motor as load.
Problem is you have to stop the engine from starting --- not so easy on modern cars best way is probably to clamp the hose from the filter to the
injector(s).
The test is best dome after the car has been lying for 8 hours without being started --- crank the engine and watch the battery voltage with a dmm if
voltage drops way down below 9 volts it is almost certainly a dead cell. Sometimes with a dead cell the voltage will drop to 6 volts then rise to
8.
[Edited on 7/2/06 by britishtrident]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 02:28 PM |
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Unfortunately in this instance the car had only been turned off for 10 minutes or so - it started OK before and after.
The battery is a candidate though - it's 6 years old now, so may be past its best. The main suspects at the moment are starter connectors,
earth strap or a dirty solenoid switch (the one that connects the power to the starter motor once the solenoid has pushed the pinion home).
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ned
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 02:38 PM |
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Don't know about new cars but my old triumph toledo's starter used to do the same sort of thing, sounded like a solenoid clicking when I
turned the key. A quick clonk with the jack on the starter motor or rocking the car in gear used to free it up!
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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DarrenW
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 02:45 PM |
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could it be the brushes sticking in the starter?
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 02:54 PM |
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I'm going to go for the easy options and work up to the hard ones! 
DJ
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splitrivet
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 04:04 PM |
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Might have just been a dead spot on the comm of the motor David.Try giving it a squirt of Servisol.
Although you do surprise me, I thought Matiz's were powered by elastic bands.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 7/2/06 by splitrivet]
[Edited on 7/2/06 by splitrivet]
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 04:25 PM |
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pedals...
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 07:51 PM |
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Don't know about the Matiz but a lot of Daewoo's are Vauxhall based , the earth lead is normally on the end of the gearbox . Have had
several problems with Vauxhall earth leads .
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steve_gus
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 08:44 PM |
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id go with the dead cell too.
put a meter on the battery and see what the voltage falls to when you turn the starter. If it drops to about 7v then its a cell. I have had 2 people i
know with this symptom and a new battery cured it right away.
If you jumped to the battery terminals, then you proved that the earth strap was ok anyway......
atb
steve
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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JoelP
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 09:03 PM |
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except it didnt start with the jump leads
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 7/2/06 at 09:23 PM |
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David , try putting one jump lead from the battery neg terminal to the engine/gearbox and starting engine. Earth strap is probably a thin woven item
which causes frequent problems . Leads with crimped ends are more reliable.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 09:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
except it didnt start with the jump leads
Cheap jump leads or proper workshop quality jump leads ? --- cheap emmergency ones are NBG they are OK for putting some charge in a discharged
battery over 20 to 30 minutes but totally useless for jump starting.
[Edited on 8/2/06 by britishtrident]
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 09:35 AM |
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To sidestep a lot of the testing previously recommended, put a voltmeter on the battery after the car has sat overnight.
A dead or dodgy cell will have the battery below 12volts, and probably nearer 11volts. The thing won't crank if it's down a cell and low
on charge.
Also, a battery that's six years old these days; belongs in a museum. They're very well honed on design to die at three years or so,(just
beyond the warranty) as if they have an internal switch! Many will now say that they have batteries gone well past three years, (as I presently have
myself), but they are the exception rather than the norm. It seems they have a certain number of 'starts', then zonk out. 
Syd.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 03:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
To sidestep a lot of the testing previously recommended, put a voltmeter on the battery after the car has sat overnight.
A dead or dodgy cell will have the battery below 12volts, and probably nearer 11volts. The thing won't crank if it's down a cell and low
on charge.
Also, a battery that's six years old these days; belongs in a museum. They're very well honed on design to die at three years or so,(just
beyond the warranty) as if they have an internal switch! Many will now say that they have batteries gone well past three years, (as I presently have
myself), but they are the exception rather than the norm. It seems they have a certain number of 'starts', then zonk out.
Syd.
Won't work --- most battery faults particularly dead cells don't show up without a heavy load on the battery that is why load tester
such as the good old "Nolten Tester" have been used in the trade since Adam was a lad.
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Browser
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 03:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by splitrivet
Although you do surprise me, I thought Matiz's were powered by elastic bands.
Cheers,
Bob
There's nowt wrong wi' the Matiz. me mums got one! No boot to speak of but an absolutely cavernous interior for such a small car. Built
out of old coke tins which means it's nice & light & does idiotic MPG. I was thinking of one for my daily driver as I only do 8 miles to
work & back.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 03:24 PM |
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Trident, You're Rorty aren't you? Go on, admit it, don't be shy! He's the only one who always contradicts what I say.
In a car battery, each cell should be a nominal 2.2 volts. Multiply by 6 = 13.2. After some use the nominal usually goes down to near 2.0+~ 2.1+,
giving 12.6~12.9 for a fair battery. This is what a normal battery will show when left to stabilise for some time after the car has been run.
If you leave it overnight, the dead cell will be well down, giving a reading of well under 12V. Give it a try, you might even see it works!
You don't need to have a 'technician' use one of those load testing things, and pay money for it, when a £4 Digital MultiMeter from
Maplins will diagnose the problem. It will even show the big drop when the starter is engaged. True! These DMM thingy's are marvellous, and so
cheap at some places.
Syd.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 03:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Browser
There's nowt wrong wi' the Matiz. me mums got one!
Not a bad little car, but I can't drive it for very long journeys - not quite enough legroom for me.
As for all the other comments & suggestions - they're all appreciated, but most of you seem to have forgotten the circumstances!  These
were: it has had no problems with starting for most of its life. On this one occasion the starter went 'clunk' instead of 'whirr -
brum - brum'. After bump-starting, it has continued to start without any problems.
I just want to pin down why it failed that one time, in case it happens again, somewhere inconvenient.
cheers,
David
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flak monkey
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 03:36 PM |
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Yep you can pick up a dead cell in a battery with a multimeter. I have done several times. Best with two people. Connect the meter across the battery
and engage the starter, voltage will drop down to next to nothing. A similar effect can be had by turning all of the lights and heated screen on.
As for detecting it without a load on, its more difficult, the voltage will be a tad low, but not a significant amount.
If the battery is knackered and the car runs on electronic ignition with an ECU then once the car is started, if you put a big load on the battery it
will stall as theres not enough power to run the engine management stuff.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 04:29 PM |
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Ok David, back to your original prob.
I got the monthly email from Pico Technologies about their gear.
To cut the story short, there was an explanation of how some auto electrical mob used a Pico computer oscilloscope to track down a similar
intermittent starting problem in a Ferrari.
The story is somewhere on the Pico site. It's a good read, and reminded me of how a Catervan driver would approach the problem.
The short of it is, that they traced the problem to a dodgy set of contacts in the starter solenoid. This was a preengaged starter.
Any help?
Syd.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 04:30 PM |
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That was one of my primary suspicions (see above)
cheers,
David
Note: no-one has answered one part of the original question... where the hell would I find the starter and engine block earth strap!
Looks like I'll have to resort to Plan B on Saturday - lie down and look under the front of the car...
[Edited on 8/2/06 by David Jenkins]
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 08:00 PM |
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David , earth strap is probably on the end of the gearbox , as for starter follow the positive lead ?
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IainB
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| posted on 8/2/06 at 09:09 PM |
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"A quick clonk with the jack on the starter motor or rocking the car in gear used to free it up!
Ned. "
Yeah i had a similar solution with my Fiat, Stick it in first and rock back and forth. Worked fine but made me look like a right tit on the Esso
forecourt!...
IAin
http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/IainB1986/
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steve_gus
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| posted on 9/2/06 at 08:31 PM |
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My BIL's battery was at over 12v until any load of any description was put on it, then it plummeted.
It wasnt left overnight so i cant argue with syd on this one either.
I hired a matiz on hols once. lots of room for a small car and fun to drive - you could thrash it everywhere without actually going fast - kinda a
1970s sports moped on 4 wheels
However, when crusing, if you turned on the A/C you could actually hear the engine note change .....
atb
steve
[Edited on 9/2/06 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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