darth G-F
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| posted on 3/7/06 at 08:40 PM |
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Anyone used Phantom grip LSD??
They say they transform your open diff to a LSD. Did anyone here use it?
Let me know, it would be much cheaper than buying a LSD...
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SkinnyG
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| posted on 3/7/06 at 10:58 PM |
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I've done some digging on this, as the PG is the ~only~ "lsd" available for my FWD autocrosser.
Some say it will destroy the differential as it is loading it differently than it was designed. (though, in a turn, the spider gears would be heavily
loaded anyway)
Some say it is works so well, you hardly know it's there (hence "phantom" .
Some say it takes a second to respond, but works ok.
Some say it works about as well as a worn VLSD.
Some say it made a significant positive change to the handling of the car.
Some say it's a waste of money.
Some have had their differentials die because of it (Hondas, Acuras, Saturns)
I have spoken to three people who have personally used it, and all three of them say that it's not bad.
One fellow ran a turbo Suzuki Forsa with 22psi boost (changes head gaskets with the oil) and after a full season of Solo I and Solo II events, could
find no evidence of damage in the differential.
If you cannot get anything else (Quaiffe, KAAZ, Cusco, Torsen, etc.), they're probably for you. I would have installed one on mine if I
weren't building the 7.
G
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kb58
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| posted on 4/7/06 at 01:43 AM |
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Yeah that's what I read, extremely different results depending who you ask. OTOH everyone who's used a Quaife is happy with it.
IF you can get a Quaife I'd do it, as expensive as it is, because as cheap as the PG is, don't forget the installation cost. (I
know there wasn't a Quaife available for your application, I meant for the other poster.)
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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alister667
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| posted on 4/7/06 at 06:46 AM |
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I was under the impression that the phantom grip was about £200 or so (not such a cheap option), are they cheaper than that?
I know there's not much to them, but apparently they don't fit directly into a 7" Sierra diff without some small machining to make
them fit.
I was seriously considering it if I can;t get a 4x4 back end. Which I can't at the minute!
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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v8kid
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| posted on 4/7/06 at 07:44 AM |
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Well i can't say I'm really happy with my Quaife but I'm not unhappy with it. I mean it always works and there is no setup but there
are inherent limitations.
Its very soft. You can still spin a single wheel up to a limit and then the other wheel joins in. If you loose traction completely on one wheel thats
it you have lost the lot.
On the other hand it comes in smoothly.
If I were to choose again I would opt for a plate type just because I think i would get a better push out of slow corners.
Really interested in the phantom grip though - was one of the magazines going to run an article on it - Practical racer or summat?
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gingerprince
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| posted on 4/7/06 at 12:22 PM |
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Had a look into the phantom grip a little while ago, and the conclusions I came to were (based on my own interpretation of how it works and what
I've read as a non-mechanic...): -
- In theory it will do (to some extent) what it's designed to.
- It can't last forever and will damage your diff. At the end of the day whenever you're not going in exactly a straight line (or you
have slightly oddly worn tyres causing the wheels to rotate at different speeds) the metal of the phantom grip will be rubbing against the gears
causing wear. How much wear I don't know, but you can't have metal-metal rubbing without wear!
- They claim however many gazillion miles of testing have shown how little they wear. Remember, this is America - land of the straight road and the
drag race. When launching in a straight line there will be less friction since the wheels are rotating at the same speed. Most USA buyers of this
item will be buying them to help them launch on the drag strip/traffic lights. With this kind of usage I'd suggest that wear rates would be
low.
I would think that the same diff used to give maximum traction on circuit or nice twisty roads would last a lot less than they suggest it can.
It may be that you can afford to replace (or replicate if you have the facilities) the phantom diff and your donor diff at regular intervals - how
many would you need to lunch before you could have bought a quaife?
Again, all the above is based on my understanding of diffs and the phantom grip - which ain't a lot  so the usual pinch of salt may be
required.
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alister667
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| posted on 4/7/06 at 06:07 PM |
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I saw it at the Autosport show in the NEC this year, as I understand the 'pin' the middle of the two plates is eleptical, so the plates
only get pushed out against the gears when the plates are being twisted around from each other (ie one wheel spinning) so the plates aren't
being ground hard all the time. I guess this reduces the wear compared to just a couple of sprung plates in the diff.
To be honest I don't know that much about it, but it was the price that put me off.
A sierra open diff I can get for small change, so wear wouldn't bother me a great deal.
How much have you guys seen them for?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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doejohn
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| posted on 13/7/06 at 09:00 PM |
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Anyone built their own PhantomGrip?
If I could only get the plans I'd build a few with my CNC machine ..
I also have an Escort diff and would sell PhantomGrip duplicates cheap!!
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alister667
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 09:39 PM |
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I'm seriously thinking about one of these as my winter upgrade.
http://www.phantomgrip.com/how_it_works.htm
Anyone seen a good price for these?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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Coose
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| posted on 23/8/06 at 10:25 PM |
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I dunno, but I like the thought of being a 'Full Race/Hard Core Warrior'!!!
(see here )
Spin 'er off Well...
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alister667
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 08:07 AM |
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Hard Core Warrior! LOL!
Maybe it comes wth a pornographic machine gun!!
God bless them, Americans are nuts!!
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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doejohn
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 12:27 PM |
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Too Expensive
Hey,
Dont you find the PG too expensive? Is there a cheaper alternative? I'd like to try and make a device like it locost style .. any ideas?
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Coose
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 12:52 PM |
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If I was looking to pay £200 for something that may work to an extent but also isn't properly tested, I'd rather hang fire for a bit and
spend £400 on a Quaife/Tran-x lsd!
[Edited on 24/8/06 by Coose]
Spin 'er off Well...
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alister667
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 04:49 PM |
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Yes i can't argue they are horribly priced for what they are, but if I go for the back end of a XR4x4 sierra I'm gonna have to change
uprights, probably refurbish the disks/calipers that come with it. It's unlikely I'll get a XR4x4 (or even just the back end) for less
than £200 as they seem to be getting rarer and rarer over here, and folks want to charge big bucks for them. 
That's why I would prefer something I could drop into my current diff, keeping the rest of the back end as is.
I don't think I can justify spending £400 for one though.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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alister667
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| posted on 24/8/06 at 05:09 PM |
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Forgot to add, does anyone else know of a similar (preferably cheaper!) product that would make my diff limited slip?
Any ideas?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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chrisf
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 01:46 PM |
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Alister:
I found the Phantom Grip to be $400, not 400 GBP.
I'm running the 7.5" diff--which I think is the same as your 4x4. I'm curious what solution use end up using. I always figured
I'd get a Quaife in the future...
--Chris
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Coose
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 02:57 PM |
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I think the figure of £400 came from me when I said that's what it would cost for a Quaife for my English axle.....
Spin 'er off Well...
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doejohn
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 03:33 PM |
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Cheaper solution
There was one guy with a home made one .. he was selling for $100
Anyone here going to purchase a PG? or has purchased one? Can I get dimensions so that we can make one?
It looks so easy .. 4 springs, some holes, a few pins ..
Porschester
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Pezza
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 03:38 PM |
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Alister
You don't need to change the whole back end to get a lsd.
I was in the same boat as you, push in open diff.
Took the ends off the push in shafts and replaced with bolt on ends from from another set of shafts, cost me about £110 for the lsd CV joints and new
boots/gease.
Pez
You couldn't pwn your way out of a wet paper bag, with "PWN ME!!" written on it, from the "pwned take-away" which originally contained one
portion of chicken tikka pwnsala and the obligatory free pwnpadom.
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doejohn
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 03:55 PM |
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Pez,
I dont quite understand, what parts would I need to get to refurbish my old Ford Escort diff to make it a LSD?
Porschester
Porschester
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alister667
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 08:30 PM |
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Pez,
I've seen this attempted (by a friend of mine), however one of the drive shaft's splined ends didn't push in far enough (one side
did though) into the diff and there was only 5-10mm of spline carrying the load. He wound up making his own drive shafts up. I know there are
different types of 7" Sierra open diffs so maybe your is OK. There have been long discussions about this elsewhere on this forum.
The £400 was referring to the Quaife solution, I figured the PG is about £200. Still a lot of wonga for a few plates and springs
The XR4x4 diff I mentioned is a 7" viscous LSD and is what most folks use. Getting hard to find in Northern Ireland
The other thing is that it's not quite as simple as plates, springs and holes I saw one in the flesh and the hole is eliptical, as I explained
above, to allow the plate to push out when twisted. But I daresay it could be copied.
I was also told that a 'standard' PG would need some machining to make it fit a 7" Sierra diff. It was being exhibited by a company
*I think* they were called Oxford Motorsport.
Is there a limited slip type device that can be taken from an existing (preferrably cheap and plentiful) diff and refitted into a 7" Sierra
diff? Any ideas?
It's a good discussion, thanks for all your thoughts!
Cheers
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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Pezza
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 09:10 PM |
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Doejohn
Mine was a sierra diff independant rather than the escort live axel, no idea about lsd for them sorry
Alister
You could well be right, I might have just got lucky.
I didn't fancy shelling out for new rear hub carriers/ calipers etc and after seeing a few other posts regarding the conversion tried it
myself.
Pez
You couldn't pwn your way out of a wet paper bag, with "PWN ME!!" written on it, from the "pwned take-away" which originally contained one
portion of chicken tikka pwnsala and the obligatory free pwnpadom.
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Coose
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| posted on 25/8/06 at 10:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by doejohn
Pez,
I dont quite understand, what parts would I need to get to refurbish my old Ford Escort diff to make it a LSD?
Porschester
Mine is an English axle too. A Quaife ATB is £400 + fitting, and not much less second hand!
Spin 'er off Well...
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alister667
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| posted on 5/9/06 at 05:40 AM |
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UK distro for the Phantom Grip are
Cambridge Motorsport
not Oxford as I said before!
And they're £213.82 for the Ford English axel models, no mention of the Sierra though! Not sure if that is Inc VAT or not.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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