balidey
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 08:55 PM |
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Future legislation and possible SVA change???
Gentlemen (and any Ladies on here?)
I thought I would let you know of future vehicle legislation that may affect future car builders, both home built and kit car suppliers.
Firstly, I am not scare mongering, this is new legislation that is definitely going to come in. But there are still so many unknowns. The SMMT and
VBRA are currently campaigning VOSA, VCA and DfT to try and get more info, but without much luck so far.
Secondly, this is still a few years away and the details that I do know are mainly to do with Commercial vehicles, but there are already sections and
codes allocated to passenger and private vehicles and domestic trailers (from little Erde up to Brian James style).
The new legislation is called Whole Vehicle Type Approval (WVTA) and it was first talked about in the commercial industry about 3 years ago. No one
really knew what to expect, much the same before SVA was introduced, but now we have some answers and a date. It looks like the legislation will be
given the green light in December 2006, with the law becoming mandatory 5 years from that date. The Type Approval for manufacturers will take approx
12 to 18 months to achieve.
This legislation is basically saying that every vehicle will have to be Type Approved and Certified. The way this will happen will be in one of two
ways. The first is IVA, Individual Vehicle Approval where you build a vehicle, taking photos along the way at key stages, then at the completion you
take it to a VOSA test station and then for £90 an hour have it checked. You must also submit detailed design drawings and calculations and hopefully
at the end of the test be given a pass, then you can register the vehicle. As I said, this is mainly aimed at Commercial vehicles (Trucks and
semi-trailers) but there are categories for cars and small home trailers. So this may either replace SVA, or complement it, or it may not affect home
built cars at all, I have not had chance to ask this question yet. Maybe if someone on here knows anyone at VOSA or STATUS then they can ask on behalf
of the Kit Car industry. At the seminar today Morgan Cars name was mentioned, but only in passing.
Now, the second option will probably affect the kit manufacturers themselves. This involves pre-Self Certification. It’s called SSVA, Small Series
Vehicle Approval. Basically before you build a vehicle to Type Approval standards you will have submitted a Technical File for every aspect of the
design of the vehicle. You must also compile a list of every item to be used in the construction and every item must have a Certificate of Conformity,
and only these items may be used in the build. Then after a 12 to 18 month wait you will then either be given a pass or need to retest. Let me give
you an example. Joe Bloggs Kit Cars sends in details of every possible model or variation it is likely to produce with all design and calculation
details and a list of every Lamp supplier they may use, every horn supplier they may use, etc. A very long list. Then if their Type Approval is passed
then as long as every car built from then on uses those items and is built to the technical details then all is ok, and there will be yearly checks on
this. But this Type Approval has not been given a cost, it may run into thousands or tens of thousands. No one knows and will not for some time. There
was talk of testing to destruction, but this seems to have fallen by the wayside. Also VOSA are saying that manufacturers MUST have a quality system
in place, and by this I mean they have ISO9001 or similar. This in itself is a huge exercise and very expensive to get and then maintain every
year.
Some examples I was given in the seminar today are the little Erde trailers you get from Halfords will need to be Type Approved. Erde will have to do
this and will probably be done via the SSVA route. Same for the Brian James type trailers. But if you want to build your own trailer in your garage,
you would need to get an IVA, Individual Vehicle Approval test done before you can use it. But here is a big unknown, how does the Government know you
have had this done, or even need to have this done, if you build a trailer before the cut off date its not needed, but after the date it is needed.
The only way round this is to Certificate trailers like cars with a registration document. Now to me this is a good thing as I work in the trailer
industry (44 tonners) and we would like certification of trailers, but the Government as a whole do not want to, so how are they going to police this?
They don’t currently know.
Another example I was given. A rigid truck is built to the new regs and is fully certified. Then 2 weeks later the owner fits a tow hitch. This
constitutes a notifiable change, so it needs to be re-inspected, but is this going to happen. But as there are categories set up for Cars, if you fit
a tow bar to your car, will it need to be inspected (at your cost) and then re-certified? If it’s not done and you have an accident, are Ford going to
say the vehicle is then not Whole Vehicle Type Approved anymore and is therefore unsafe? Or un-insured?
I am afraid there are still lots of unknowns, but this legislation IS coming. It will cost a lot of money to the Manufactures to set up for SSVA and
for the individual for the IVA.
Also VOSA are only allocating 25 of their test stations to do these test. There are going to be thousands of commercial vehicles needing these tests
every year and the waiting time for us (commercial builders) will be approx 4 weeks, so I presume the kit car inspections will suffer, ie not enough
slots available.
And finally, I am not an expert in this field, everything I know about the subject is written above, so please don’t bombard me with questions, I just
thought I should let kit builders know of future laws that MAY (or may not) affect you. But I would be interested to hear the thoughts of STATUS, or
any kit manufacturers (if you have been contacted by VOSA, VCA or DfT?)
And finally (yes another finally) lets not get hysterical, the SVA sent panic through the industry a few years back, but I am sure many people now
realise the benefits of making sure everyone builds their cars UPTO a minimum standard, which is what I am sure WVTA is aimed at doing. For your
information, this is being rolled out across Europe too.
There you go, well done if you read all that. Best off re-reading it again. And please note that none of this may affect kit cars at all, but it
might. The self built trailers is definitely valid, as is the possible extra waiting time at test stations. Until the government issue full details
(May next year is a possibility) then the SMMT, VBRA and you or me won’t know.
Regards,
SA.
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GeoffB
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 08:59 PM |
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Bloody hell..Hurry up swansea with my test date.!!
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matt.c
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 09:02 PM |
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Thanks for the info.
Better get mine started soon
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balidey
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 09:05 PM |
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Calm down everyone.
Theres 5 years minimum, and it may not even affect kit cars. But it WILL affect trailers built after that date.
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joolsmi16
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 10:15 PM |
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How will this affect the self builder using the "book" chassis with technical drawing and various chassis stiffness calculations not
available.
When kit manufactures are mentioned with the new process in mind is this aimed at turn key vehicles supplied? As I fail to see how a kit manufacture
can supplied a chassis and ensure its built using all the same components without diversion.
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russbost
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 11:12 PM |
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Looks like a typical Government/Ministery/Vosa knee jerk reaction. By the time the legislation finally gets passed (probably around 2020) hopefully it
will have been watered down to be as (in)effective as current SVA!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Peteff
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| posted on 22/11/06 at 11:34 PM |
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Where did you hear this?
I think you'll find it's aimed at firms modifying commercial vehicle chassis/cab bus combinations and camper conversions. WVTA has been in
for passenger cars since 1998 and motorcycles since 1999. We already have the ESVA which is doing the same as the IVA you mention and our vehicles
are exempt from it as they have their own SVA test. Don't scaremonger till you have more details relevant to kit car legislation. Home builders
don't need TUV or ISO certification or need to submit supplier details, Westfield or Caterham might if they sell enough ready built cars.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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DavidM
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 12:10 AM |
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The only thing that can be certain is that if this government has anything to do with it, it will be a right pigs ear.
David
Proportion is Everything
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tks
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 07:34 AM |
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its a bloody good thing!
I hope that the EU comes allong this.
Then the kitcar market will rise sky high to all the countries in the EU.
When you build allong the book there is nothing needed!
Only one engineer needs to prepare the documents and calcs its really that easy.
then you download and the planns and the documents. cant be easyer..
anyway i think that some day the welding of you chasis needs to be done by someone wich has a certificate of quality..
lets face it we are in 2006 non in ron his time... i would do my chasis all alone over here they will lough at me.. (not because of quality its just
confidence)
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Syd Bridge
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 09:20 AM |
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And I've been trying to tell everyone on here for a long time, that this stuff is coming down the line, ....and no one would believe me.
Wait until it gets here, and you WILL end up with an Aus type system for your kits. The UK approval engineers can be a lot more anal than the aus.
Manufacturers, smarten up your acts now, or you will only have yourselves to blame.
Syd.
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balidey
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 09:52 AM |
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Where did I hear this? Its being presented to as many people involved in the Commercial vehicle industry as possible, in Press, Seminars, conferences,
mail shots etc. As it may have consequences to kit builders (in a few years) I thought I would tip you all off.
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
I think you'll find it's aimed at firms modifying commercial vehicle chassis/cab bus combinations and camper conversions.
Mainly at vehicle Manufacturers, repairers and modifiers, but it MAY affect kit builders.
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
and our vehicles are exempt from it as they have their own SVA test.
Now they are exempt, but this is future legislation, so who knows if the SVA will remain, change or be replaced.
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Home builders don't need TUV or ISO certification or need to submit supplier details.
Correct, but a kit supplier MAY have to. They could test each car to IVA, or if using the SSVA then they WOULD need to get ISO or BSI
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Westfield or Caterham might if they sell enough ready built cars.
It will be based purely on cost, if an IVA costs upto £900 per vehicle test (could be more, or less) but there are no figures for SSVA, but it is
envisaged that manufactures will go SSVA.
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Don't scaremonger till you have more details relevant to kit car legislation.
Sorry you feel this way. I was under the impression I was giving the kit industry some useful advanced information that (I repeat) May or May Not
affect it.
quote:
Originally posted by joolsmi16
How will this affect the self builder using the "book" chassis with technical drawing and various chassis stiffness calculations not
available.
When kit manufactures are mentioned with the new process in mind is this aimed at turn key vehicles supplied? As I fail to see how a kit manufacture
can supplied a chassis and ensure its built using all the same components without diversion.
The book drawings will probably be sufficient as ‘Good Engineering Practice’. The new legislation is mainly PAPERWORK, the basics of car design are
not changing, but the TESTING and CERTIFICATION (and costs for these) look like they will change.
And remember, I will say this again, this will come into force, but not until 2012 at the earliest and it may not affect kit builders at all, but if
any kit manufacturers read this it may be worth you giving your contacts at VOSA a quick call to discuss.
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tks
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 09:59 AM |
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VOSA has nothing to tell...
VOSA has nothing to tell!
they just obdey!
its the vosa boss wich putts the rulez down. Its the ministers wich creates the law (approves it). I think that the SVA will remain. but they will
make it more work (paper and calcs.) people will buy more kits (chasises) and then some day the SVA will disappear (atleast its costs and needings
will rise)
Regards,
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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matt_claydon
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 10:35 AM |
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The forthcoming ECWVTA legislation essetially applies to commercial vehicles only. Cars have been type-approved as whole vehicles for years and
the SVA is already in place as an alternative for amateur builders, low volume mfrs, importers etc. The only change for cars is a different limit for
small-volume manufacturers.
More info:
 
ECWVTA
[Edited on 23/11/06 by matt_claydon]
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balidey
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 11:12 AM |
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Matt, thanks for that, i was not given that info yesterday. So the SVA will remain.
But other points i raised are still valid.
All trailers, either Brian James type or home built ones WILL be affected.
And the VOSA test centres will almost certainly become busier, ie possibly extra waiting times for SVA tests.
Sorry if I caused a slight panic, but the info i was given yesterday DID have new sections stated for CARS, so it seemed likely that SVA was changinq,
but with this new info it seems its not. Sorry.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 12:57 PM |
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Looking at the table that Matt has provided and if I understand it correctly, the new legislation will have very little impact within the kit car
industry. I seriously doubt whether any of the smaller manufacturers build 75 cars per year. The only manufacturers that may possibly be affected are
Caterham and Westfield however, don't they currently have type approval for their vehicles anyhow?
Phil
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angus.d
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| posted on 23/11/06 at 01:30 PM |
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Can't totally comment on how it affects the home built car but with reference to the whole vehicle type approval or type approval which affects
trailers, kit cars etc, then this is the way which things may well be going generally in Europe but generally this would affect the mass market
manufacturer or kit manufacturer and not necessarily the individual.
Although type-approval (particularly SVA)may be seen as an annoying thing by the individual, it can protect the consumer by ensuring that the
manufacturer of a product (trailer, kit car etc) has had their product tested to applicable national/international standards and then certified by an
independent approval authority. The product is then marked (usually by way of a CE mark in Europe - or an e-mark I think on vehicles).
The above is usually done to prevent placement of dodgily designed/manufactured or unsafe product (cars, trailers or whatever) on the marketplace.
However once someone buys it then they can do whatever they want to it. Sure it may well nullify that type approval but that is at the consumers own
risk (a bit like post-SVA mods).
The likelyhood of someone policing whether any mod you've done then contravenes the manufacturers approval is slim, and hence why I hope the SVA
test is likely to continue for home built cars.
I'm a type approval engineer by the way (but for personal protective equipment).
Angus
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tks
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| posted on 22/10/07 at 01:26 PM |
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BUT there only will be one type of problem and that is emision standards.
TKs
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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