stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:03 PM |
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Audi S4 Twin Turbo V6
Im now looking at fitting an Audi s4 v6 2.7 ltr twin turbo into my Minotaur,
Assuming i can get it to fit by rerouting a few things it would appear i may have a few more issues to deal with i.e I popped into see my friends at
challis autos (they are very into cars and have recently fitted NOS to a rs4) and asked there opinion,
they thought it was great but the owner rang the guy that they use for dynos, ecu's etc.
apparently hes a wizard ,
he has said that i would not get away with a cheep ecu (wont be able to use originall ecu apparently) and would need to be spending about 2 grand on
it, i think this also includes them programming it also i would need a specially made loom and that would cost me around £700, any body ever done
anything like this or does anyone have any ideas input ?
cheers stu
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DIY Si
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:09 PM |
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What's wrong with megasquirt?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
What's wrong with megasquirt?
Might struggle with coil on plug for a V6 for starters. Audi engine is sequential injection I think, so you'd have to go back to batch. Turbo
control might be a bit fiddly as well. Nothing that couldn't be sorted with a bit of head scratching, but possibly a bit of a step backwards.
Still, i'd probably have a go, but then i'm a bit of a masochist when it comes to these things.
On a similarly brain-pain inducing note, you probably could use the OEM ECU, but you'd need to get all sorts of other things from the
donor car to keep it running happily (clocks, keys, traction control sensors, abs, gearbox sensors, rear window washer etc etc) as almost everything
is ecu controlled these days and it'll chuck a wobbly if it thinks the headlamp washer fluid is a bit low or something...
You should be able to get it running without spending 2k on the ECU, there are some very capable units about for half that. 700 notes for an engine
loom is silly money, you'll be able to re-use most of the OEM loom if you get it with the engine and it's fairly easy to chop about.
[Edited on 11/12/06 by martyn_16v]
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stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:24 PM |
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ive been told that because it needs to controll the 6 cylinders and the 2 turbos plus flybywire throttle it wont be good enough ?
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:28 PM |
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2K seems far to much to me. Thats about the cost of a mid level Motec etc.
I think the ecu cost comes down to what sensors you want to retain. I dont think many of the less expensive ECU's will read Mass Air Flow. Most
work on Manifold Pressure. But both methods work.
If its got Variable Valve timing then some of the cheaper ECU's dont do this, but then again im sure someone's written a patch for
Megasquirt by now.
If you looking for proffesional advice call Emerald ECU's etc and speak to them.
Personally i see no reason why it couldnt be done wiht a mega squirt. If theres no pressure tapping on the manifold it would be easy enought to put
in, the only change might be to some of the sensors as Mega squirt is mainly based on GM? sensor values and as such some values (like throttle pot)
may differ.
As for the loom, its probably less that a couple of hours for a competent electrician. So id think more like a £100 for the loom.
Personally i think you could do the ECU for well under 1K and if all works by you down to 5-700.
Having just read the new post....
Theres nothing to stop you junking the fly by wire throttle. This is something that would have been tied into the original ECU for the traction
control etc.
[Edited on 11/12/06 by jono_misfit]
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DIY Si
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:29 PM |
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I thought the fly by wire stuff just went to the ecu? If its been removed, surely just use a normal cable? Oh, I didn't realise it was coil on
plug, but is it possible to just pulse LT wires to each plug rather than the usual HT?
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:30 PM |
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Ooh, i'd forgotten about the fly-by-wire. Personally i'd try and get rid of that altogether and go back to a 'normal' cable
operated throttle, the safety implications if the throttle control goes haywire are worrying (anyone remember that BMW driver about a year back that
went screaming up the A1 (I think) at 130 for an hour or so because his fbw throttle stuck open?)
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Agriv8
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:31 PM |
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have a look at VEMS.
Playing with this Kit at the moment and i think it will do it.
have a look at V EMS
ATB
Agriv9
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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jamesg20
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:32 PM |
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Isn't it a v8 in the rs4 rather than a v6?
Might be worth speaking to Marc Norden he was putting one in his tytan demonstrator.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:34 PM |
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Nope, the OLD S4 has a 250 bhp, twin (bi?) turbo engine, I think the new one has a V8 though.
[Edited on 11/12/06 by DIY Si]
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:37 PM |
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its not a rs4 just an s4 so its 2.7 bi turbo
and if im honest i havent a clue about ecu's i guess it scares the s**t out of me , dont know why just yet another unknown , but its always good
to talk to u guys that dont seem to be phased by it , just wish i wasnt guess thats why originally i wanted a small block chevy (ne real electrics)
lol
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stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:41 PM |
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this is what im looking at
this is what im looking at buying if it fits collecting next weekend for a test fit
:- As standard the engine makes 265bhp but they can easilly make 340 with a chip and exhaust (see MTM or Revo). You will have to do this in your
conversion anyway to disable to immobiliser (Revo do this) and make your exhaust system so if you plan on 320 bhp as a minimum you'll not be far
off. They can make a lot more if you upgrade to RS4 turbos.
Because its twin turbo it spools up very quickly and reaches peak torque at 1850 rpm onwards - basically these engines pull like a train and
don't red line until just short of 7000rpm....they also come with a standard oil cooler and are well known for lasting forever if they are
looked after.
The list of parts I have is :-
- Full engine complete with all ancillaries, 1999, 56k miles, new timing belt, new clutch and water pump
- lightened flywheel (brand new still boxed)
- intercoolers and pipes
- standard ECU
- engine loom
- all induction system and sensors
- specially built Audi 01W 2wheel drive gearbox (never run since being built) with special ratios
- spacer plate (required if standard flywheel is used)
- driveshafts
- instrument pack (needed for immobiliser)
- probably loads of bits I've forgotten
- full Audi parts software so you can work out which bolts to use etc!!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:43 PM |
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Don't worry, I don't know that much about ECU's, but it is only a little computer that runs the engine, nowt scary. Admittedly some
manufacturers stuff is very weird, but mainly to stop you playing with it, kind of what you want to do really! Others on here have run V6's with
minimal hassle, but yours may be a little more advanced, so may require a little extra hassle, but should be worth it in the end!
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:54 PM |
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yes i agree , how cool to have this monster car with a proper supercar sound and a modern engine instead of the chevy , hopefully it will fit then i
will be in a world of poo 
will sound well cool with turbos spinning up i have a pic of 1 fitted to an ultima.JPG)
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DIY Si
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 08:58 PM |
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In which case it may be worth asking Ultima how they did it, or how their customer did it. Didn't realise it had some kinky little covers on it
too! 
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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RazMan
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 09:25 PM |
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Hi Stu,
The £2K estimate is definitely OTT IMO. Having got a V6 loomed (modded oem) and nailed to an MBE ecu for less than a grand I know it is possible -
however mapping might well cost £500 or so due to the complexity of setting up the twin turbos (and the VVT I think)
No need for all the fancy emission controls and security gizmos, so strip it all down to basics and I am sure you will get it running well for around
£1500
[Edited on 11-12-06 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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budge
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 09:27 PM |
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The work around that I've used for Audi and Vw coil on plug units when fitting ecus (found out the hard way that DTA ecus don't like them
!)is to use double ended Bosch coils and Mk 2 Golf gti 16v leads. you'll need some custom covers/keeper plates to sit where the coils used to.
these are easy to make - 6mm ali plate, a scriber, a hacksaw, a file and a couple of drills or I'll let you have a cad drawing.
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stulad
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| posted on 11/12/06 at 09:41 PM |
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lol Raz sounds like you have just found yourself a job seeing as you will soon have nothing to fill youre time & budge i havent a clue what you
are talking about sorry im in a world i dont understand
btw £1500 sounds do able as the package im hopefully getting is a reasonable deal, remeber tho this is more complex as it has 2 turbos ...
[Edited on 11/12/06 by stulad]
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02GF74
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stulad
ive been told that because it needs to controll the 6 cylinders and the 2 turbos plus flybywire throttle it wont be good enough ?
I haven't really studied MS in great details but am a bit surprised - you don't need a CRAY to control car fuelling & ignition.
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RazMan
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:42 AM |
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Agreed, if we can land men on the moon with nothing more than the computing power of a basic calculator ............
The only features which I am unfamiliar with on this engine is the VVT and the fly by wire throttle, which might be controlled by the ecu (I've
only just grasped the principles of the overhead cam  ) Not sure if MS is capable of taking control of this but in any case I would have thought that
a basic aftermarket ecu would be ok with it - you can always retro fit a standard throttle body to simplify things a bit anyway. The twin turbos
shouldn't complicate things too much either - aren't they just treated as one (for mapping purposes)anyway?
Mapping is another matter however and is likely to be the biggest hurdle
[Edited on 12-12-06 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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jono_misfit
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:48 AM |
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It depends on the type of VVT. Some switch "on" at a certain RPM. The mega squirt would just need a change to the code to look for this
rpm and then activate and output. It'd possibly need a driver added to the board, but theres a spare area for experimenting isnt there?
Im sure if someone looked on the megasquirt forum then someone will have done it already.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 10:49 AM |
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I have been researching this subject myself in some detail recently, as I need to run a pair of rather strange engines in my new project.
I looked at the megasquirt route, but as usual you get what you pay for and this is no exception.
First off with your setup, get rid of the fly by wire and convert to conventional throttle.
Second, call DTAfast and speak to them about using their S60Pro ECU to control the engine. This system is around £750 for the ECU - here's some
idea:
ECU Functions
Engine Configuration
20,000 rpm capability
Flexible and easily adapted to different OEM, crank, cam sensor arrangements.
Genuine four and two stroke support.
Twin spark engines.
Twin injector engines.
Sequential or grouped injection.
Individual coils, wasted spark or distributor.
Unequal coil firing capability.
Unequal injection angle capability.
Delayed sequential injection.
User controlled fan activation.
Sensors can be calibrated individually with a lot of preset options supplied.
Flexible Tacho Output
soft and hard rev limits
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Main Fuel and Ignition Functions
Two main fuel, spark and turbo maps selected by a dashboard switch.
Comprehensive start up fuelling options both time and temperature dependant.
Air, coolant and manifold pressure compensation maps.
Throttle transient increase compensation.
Throttle transient reduction compensation.
RPM and load breakpoints can be calibrated by the user.
Throttle or MAP as load.
All maps with one or two dimensional with interpolation as required.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lambda control functions
Extensive lambda parameters table to ensure stable closed loop operation and emissions requirements can be met where needed.
Full three dimensional lambda target map.
Auto-tuning function.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turbo Control Functions
Open or closed loop turbo pressure control via PWM valve.
Modify target turbo pressure by gear selected.
Modify target turbo pressure by vehicle speed.
Two control maps selected by switch on dashboard.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Idle Control Functions
Open or closed loop idle speed control via PWM valve.
Closed loop idle target speed temperature dependant.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.
Fuel enrichment table calibrated versus PWM percentage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALS Control Functions
Full ALS ignition and fuel maps.
ALS valve control together with map switching controlled
by dash board switch.
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Cam Control Functions
Open or closed loop cam advance control via PWM valve.
Static offset table to zero out electrical movement effects.
Active Cam Target Advance map, load and speed dependant.
Active base PWM map for easy calibration.
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Water Injection
When not being used to control the camshaft, cam base PWM map can be used instead for water injection, giving complete load and speed dependence.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flexible Input/Output
Three uncommitted input tables which use 0 5 volt inputs or any input the S60 knows already, linked to fuel and advance modifiers and a PWM output.
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Launch Control
Fully flexible first gear launch capability.
Extensively tunable to individual vehicles.
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Full Throttle Gear Shift Cut
Shift cut capability with 1ms resolution, variable for each gear with
full switch de-bounce capability.
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Voltage Compensation Tables
User configurable voltage compensation tables for injector dead time
and coil on time (dwell time).
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Firmware
The ECU firmware is flash upgradeable via the serial port with a special cable and software. Current firmware and software published on
www.dtafast.co.uk.
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CAN PC Communications.
The ECU can communicate with the PC via our
USB -> CAN converter. This solves the problem
of unreliable USB -> RS232 converters.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Data Logging
Up to thirty six separate items can be logged.
Three user selectable logging frequencies.
Up to nine hours logging capability.
Graphing can be done on-line to the ECU.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diagnostics and Test Features.
Full sensor diagnostics and fault recording.
Extensive engine run time recording at different load and speed conditions.
Ability to exercise injectors and coils without engine running for fault finding.
If you give them a call Alan there will help you out, give him a brief rundown of what you need to do and he will confirm what you need, but the S60
Pro will do it.
Don't cut corners on this, as mapping turbo engines is not an easy task, and very easy to end up with holes in your pistons!!!
You won't find another system for less money that will do the same job, and work straight out of the box.
There are undoubtedly people that could get megasquirt to do the job, but bear in mind that you will need a friendly rolling road to map the engine,
and once there, you are paying by the hour. A few hundred saved on the ECU will quickly dissapear at £60 an hour or so on the rollers, if the operator
is unfamiliar with the software.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Schrodinger
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 12:38 PM |
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I have used an Emerald in the past and was very pleased both with the unit it's self and the service from Emerald. It is capable of VVC and
turbo control. Have alook at
http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
and give them a call
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UncleFista
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 01:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by martyn_16v
(anyone remember that BMW driver about a year back that went screaming up the A1 (I think) at 130 for an hour or so because his fbw throttle stuck
open?)
There was nothing wrong with the BMW driver's car, he refused to switch the engine off too. He was just an attention-seeker.
He was formally charged....
Twat...
Edited to say, the BMW driver is a twat, no-one on here
[Edited on 12/12/06 by UncleFista]
Tony Bond / UncleFista
Love is like a snowmobile, speeding across the frozen tundra.
Which suddenly flips, pinning you underneath.
At night the ice-weasels come...
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 12/12/06 at 06:24 PM |
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I do remember thinking the same thing at the time, not really suprised to hear that it turned out that way eventually. I think at the time
'they' said that it was an auto and may not have come out of gear at full chat, and he was too worried about PAS/assisted brakes etc going
off if he cut the engine. Wasn't too scared to spend f*cking ages on the phone to the AA though...
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