chockymonster
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 08:39 PM |
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Vortx Harness mount strengthening
As you all know, my Vortx failed SVA on the following point.
5.2 A seat belt anchorage or the surrounding vehicle structure is of inadequate strength and likely to fail.
His explanation is
N/S + O/S top seatbelt anchorage points have no triangulation and bracing to spread the load effectively into the chassis.
I looked at Dion and Steve's idea of making the harness posts thicker but didn't think that it would meet the approval of my tester.
Here's our take on beefing up the mounting and offering some further triangulation.
The only holes drilled are for the central brace, not modifying the roll bar in anyway.
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 08:50 PM |
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How come other Vortx haven't been pulled up on this at SVA, or has Marc since changed the design of the mountings? IMO all that extra bracing
looks a bit agricultural and unsightly given that it's something you wouldn't wish to remove after SVA.
Can't Marc offer an alternative/neater method to overcome your problem?
Phil
[Edited on 28-12-06 by Hellfire]
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graememk
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 08:59 PM |
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which sva test cetre was it ?
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by graememk
which sva test cetre was it ?
Southampton I believe.
Phil
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amalyos
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:14 PM |
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Paul,
It looks like a safety strap if it fails, not strengthening to prevent it failing.
I've no doubt that the original posts would be fine as manufactured, so it's more about making it look right, I don't think those
straps will convince the SVA.
Steve
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TimC
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:18 PM |
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Erm... 
Find out when your tester is off???
[Edited on 28/12/06 by TimC]
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Howlor
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:20 PM |
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Do you have any pics from underneath? I don't think your centre brace will do much to add strength really.
If it was anything like mine the cage is welded onto a flat plate about 4mm thick. I would have suggested the only weak point really is the bolt
bending the tube and possibly the tube pulling out of the plate it is welded into, slim chance.
How about getting longer bolts so they go right through and then putting a nut on the back with a large load spreading plate. This would be good
enough for rallying therefore should be good enough for the SVA. Mine was done like this as i didn't have the welded threaded tubes.
The only other thing i would suggest is possibly welding say 4 fillets up the length of each tube and welded along the plate. It should look like a
missle when looked from above!
Steve
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Howlor
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:36 PM |
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Thinking about it mine also had triangular braces (4 off) welded underneath the plate and onto the uprights that formed the back of the cockpit area.
I will try and find some pics.
Steve
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stevec
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
which sva test cetre was it ?
Southampton I believe.
Phil
That explains a lot, they are a little strict on that sort of thing there.
Personaly I dont think he will like what you have done, He will probably want it fixing like a "Major manufacturer" would do it.
Steve.
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chockymonster
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:44 PM |
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It does look a tad agricultural but I'm against the clock with my covernote expiring on the 9th and having to face faffing around with Reading
DVLA who will not inspect the vehicle until I have a MAC certificate.
I want to make up something that is neater but I'm more worried about getting through SVA and then being able to do it at my leisure.
Both Amalyos and Numnuts were pulled up on the same thing at SVA. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening to other owners as I
totally understand where my tester is coming from. The mounts as they stand are insufficient.
I spoke to my tester about drilling all the way through and bracing from the underneath, the issue he had was there was nothing to stop the tube
bending forward.
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
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Howlor
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:52 PM |
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Or just weld 4 fillets up it's length.
Steve
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Hellfire
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 09:54 PM |
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It's a real PITA when you follow the SVA manual, build a vehicle that would probably pass the test at 99% of test centres across the country and
on the day, it all comes down to some jobsworth SVA inspector who probably got refused the leg over the night before, who then expects you to jump
through burning hoops to satisfy his exacting requirements, never once questioning his own knowledge/ability to carry out his duties as a competent
SVA inspector...........
AAARRGGGHHHH 
Phil
Edit: Having read Chockys last post and if the mountings are indeed insufficient, then surely it's down to MNR to put them right?
[Edited on 28-12-06 by Hellfire]
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chockymonster
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 10:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
if the tube was smaller in height this would lower the chance of it bending forward, is it not possible too chop it down a bit?
Chris
Nope, then I fall foul of harness holes on the seats.
Rock and hard place
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numnuts
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 10:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chockymonster
It does look a tad agricultural but I'm against the clock with my covernote expiring on the 9th and having to face faffing around with Reading
DVLA who will not inspect the vehicle until I have a MAC certificate.
I want to make up something that is neater but I'm more worried about getting through SVA and then being able to do it at my leisure.
Both Amalyos and Numnuts were pulled up on the same thing at SVA. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening to other owners as I
totally understand where my tester is coming from. The mounts as they stand are insufficient.
I spoke to my tester about drilling all the way through and bracing from the underneath, the issue he had was there was nothing to stop the tube
bending forward.
I still think that mine and steve solution was a better and neater option. As mine was drilled tapped and large spread washer fitted underneath . with
the larger diameter stock fitted over the top there was no way this could then bend forward . sorry but don't think mr SVA man will like that
hope all goes well Dion .
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RichardK
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 10:33 PM |
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Would something like this do the trick?
Image deleted by owner
Or a brace across your roll bar with fully welded threaded inserts at the right hight for your straps.
Just a couple of ideas
Regards
Rich
[Edited on 28/12/06 by RichardK]
Gallery updated 11/01/2011
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marc n
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 10:53 PM |
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hi paul
have learnt to drive my new machine now although still on my L plates  may be able to make some bolt on brackets in the time scale although we
may be cutting it fine ( currently awaiting a software upgrade not due for dispatch till 2nd jan )
quote:
Both Amalyos and Numnuts were pulled up on the same thing at SVA. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening to other owners as I
totally understand where my tester is coming from. The mounts as they stand are insufficient
dont forget that this is only three cars in two years, i have svad 10 myself with no problems at all, dont think they are going to like the straps you
have from my experiance of sva, but it would appear that the sva isnt particularly consistent at the best of times so you may be ok Hopefully this
issue will no longer occur when i have all the cetification at the end of the year, after a pull test
edit to add
having looked at various other manufacturers cars via build diarys on the net etc our mts are by far the best supported of those i have seen, some
are welded to just a 1 inch box section rail with no further supports or rear chassis stays, some have small fillets that are still only mounted to a
inch box crossmember with no support to stop the structure moving forward ours are mounted to a 4mm plate which is an integral part of the whole
chassis and rollcage structure have a look for yourself,
the main problem i suspect is height of belts / to seat ratio meaning you have kept the full height of the bosses to allow for the runners, the
easiest way is to remove the runners to lower the seats to lower the bosses, then bolt with a large load speadng plate underneath as a 12.9 m12 bolt
is gonna take some fair bending afterall some 7 types have the harness mount incorporated in the rollbar that has no rear stays often made from thin
wall erw and is fixed to the chassis by means of four m10 bolts per side
i know which i would rather have
best regards
marc
[Edited on 28/12/06 by marc n]
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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chockymonster
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 11:36 PM |
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Marc,
We discussed what we were planning with the guy at the centre so all we can do is go on what he suggested after I told him I couldn't bolt
anything through the rollbar.
He discounted immediately drilling through and using an M10 bolt all the way through unless I chopped the mount down.
The seats are mounted directly to the floor as the harnesses were not at a decent angle.
PLEASE NOTE - Responses on Forum Threads may contain Sarcasm and may not be suitable for the hard of Thinking.
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chockymonster
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| posted on 28/12/06 at 11:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marc n
dont forget that this is only three cars in two years, i have svad 10 myself with no problems at all, dont think they are going to like the straps you
have from my experiance of sva, but it would appear that the sva isnt particularly consistent at the best of times so you may be ok Hopefully this
issue will no longer occur when i have all the cetification at the end of the year, after a pull test
Marc,
I understand where you're coming from. My lovely tester did mention other vehicles having mounts welded through 1 inch box section. In his
opinion this was preferable because the pulling motion was dissipated more throughout the chassis!
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marc n
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 12:36 AM |
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quote:
In his opinion this was preferable because the pulling motion was dissipated more throughout the chassis!
words fail me, but unfortunately you are at this testers mercy
quote:
We discussed what we were planning with the guy at the centre so all we can do is go on what he suggested after I told him I couldn't bolt
anything through the rollbar.
if he suggested the fix then fingers crossed
quote:
The seats are mounted directly to the floor as the harnesses were not at a decent angle.
im not sure how that has hapened as normally the belt mts are really high when the seat is bolted to the floor
i have found the an sva map i have used at sva previous not sure wether its joao s or not though, i know he has a copy on his pc cause i sent it too
him
best regards
marc
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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DavidM
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 01:44 AM |
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If you go with that solution, you'll need to make sure it meets edge radius requirements.
David
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marc n
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 10:48 AM |
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quote:
If you go with that solution, you'll need to make sure it meets edge radius requirements.
thats why i just dont understand the sva system sometimes, if i went to my sva centre with that setup they would fail it on radius checks and also say
it wasnt a permanent solution
one book many variations on understanding it
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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chockymonster
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 10:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DavidM
If you go with that solution, you'll need to make sure it meets edge radius requirements.
David
It's covered in foam padding now so radius should be ok.
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chockymonster
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 10:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marc n
i have found the an sva map i have used at sva previous not sure wether its joao s or not though, i know he has a copy on his pc cause i sent it too
him
best regards
marc
Marc,
can you email it across to me?
I'm booked in to do the emissions this afternoon and that would help.
Paul
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chockymonster
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 11:00 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by marc n
thats why i just dont understand the sva system sometimes, if i went to my sva centre with that setup they would fail it on radius checks and also say
it wasnt a permanent solution
one book many variations on understanding it
Southampton take pictures of every car that passes SVA to keep as a record of how it was when they approved it so they can say "it wasn't
like that when we passed it"
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Wadders
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| posted on 29/12/06 at 12:19 PM |
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Sorry, i can see youv'e put a lot of time into finding a solution, but have to agree it looks like a bodge, and is unlikely to pass. If iv'e
got my head around your existing set up correctly (its hard to tell from the photos etc) then something like this might do the trick. pls excuse the
drawing its done in word so really its just to give an idea and not to scale or anything.
[img][/img]
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