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Author: Subject: Subaru Powered Midy/Thoughts?
rontyler

posted on 20/11/07 at 10:25 PM Reply With Quote
Subaru Powered Midy/Thoughts?

Greetings,

Been a while since I last posted... 'stuff' gets in the way sometimes.

Anyhow, been seriously considering getting back to the scratchbuilt midy project, from a new perspective. That is to say, a different powertrain. Yup, you guessed it, Subaru in a 2WD config... most likely the EJ22.

Before I get all crossed up and make the wrong choice, I'd like to hear opinions on said powertrain. Pro's and con's if you will.

I expected width to be an issue, but my preliminary drawings suggest its a realistic hurdle. So lets ignore that for now.

Any thoughts?





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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tegwin

posted on 20/11/07 at 10:27 PM Reply With Quote
Its interesting..

I was thinking just this the other day....But with the latest turbo jobby...

I guess you might be able to use a porsche gearbox if you turn it upsideown...

The engines are not actually 'that' wide...still a problem

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rontyler

posted on 20/11/07 at 10:44 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I was thinking just this the other day....But with the latest turbo jobby...


The second 'stage' would probably see a pair of turbo's. Room needs to be set aside for them, but I'm leaning towards keeping it simple, initially.

quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
I guess you might be able to use a porsche gearbox if you turn it upsideown...


Any reason not to use the stock gearbox?





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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meany

posted on 20/11/07 at 10:57 PM Reply With Quote
you could use a 2dw box from the old front wheel drive models, not sure how strong the internals are on those.

you could however, make it 2 wd, basically bay welding up the centre diff.

see below.( itsays for rwd but i expect it will still work...maybe)
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27532&pp=20

The impreza Track is not as wide as you think, not as wide as a sierra.

i have a set up lying in the way in my garage.






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meany

posted on 20/11/07 at 10:59 PM Reply With Quote
plus..if i recall, someone is actually doing a middy Subaru project.






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caber

posted on 20/11/07 at 11:07 PM Reply With Quote
I have 3 friends, weel 2 and a brother with scoobies at tyhe moment, I am just waiting until one of them get written off so I can buy the salvage as a donor. I was thinking similar put the engine and box at the back possibly even use the suspension or at least the uprights.

I do like the idea of something like a 1960s le mans or can am car based around a space frame and some plastic panels!

It should be possible to come up with some reasonable geometry for the suspension though I can't get through the maths!
Caber

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rontyler

posted on 20/11/07 at 11:15 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by meany

you could however, make it 2 wd, basically bay welding up the centre diff.
see below.( itsays for rwd but i expect it will still work...maybe)
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27532&pp=20


Thanks for the link.

My wife's daily driver is a '95 Legacy... it doesn't seem as though it has a center diff. as it chatters a bit in tight turns.
I haven't researched that aspect... yet.


quote:
Originally posted by meany
The impreza Track is not as wide as you think, not as wide as a sierra.



Fairly wide wheels will address this to some degree. Aside from that, I'm not entirely opposed to a little narrower track in the rear.

quote:
Originally posted by meany
plus..if i recall, someone is actually doing a middy Subaru project.


I did a little searching before hand and the closest thing I found was the "Blast". If you can point me to another, I'd be grateful.

Thanks!





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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meany

posted on 20/11/07 at 11:19 PM Reply With Quote
if anyone wants any measurements, just ask. Im in my 5th year of scoob ownership.

the pics below are from a 96WRX.
and a legacy gearbox...same length.
its one long MoFo..lol.

http://s8.photobucket.com/albums/a33/meanandgreen/scooby%20bits%20for%20sale/






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kb58

posted on 20/11/07 at 11:24 PM Reply With Quote
Here in California, Subaru STi drivetrains are very expensive, around US$10k, which is nuts.





Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html

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rontyler

posted on 21/11/07 at 12:10 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kb58
Here in California, Subaru STi drivetrains are very expensive, around US$10k, which is nuts.


Kurt,

Thats what steers me to the EJ22. Around here, Pick N Pull's sell complete, running engines for $160 and tranny's for $100. They're only guaranteed as cores, but out of the last 7 I looked at, I'd bet 2 of them were perfectly useable... at least for kicking off a project such as this.

P.S. I looked into the center diff 'issue' and apparently the '95 does, in fact, have one... and it so happens that they occasionally 'lock-up'. Must be the case with my wife's car <shrug>.

[Edited on 21/11/07 by rontyler]

[Edited on 21/11/07 by rontyler]





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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gator

posted on 21/11/07 at 03:34 AM Reply With Quote
If I can get this thing to work, here are a couple of photos of 4WD and 2WD boxes, the 2Wd is a bit shorter (and lighter) but the rear mounts look to be in the same place. One has cable clutch (2wd), the other hydraulic. Regards, Alan. Rescued attachment 100_1334.jpg
Rescued attachment 100_1334.jpg

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gator

posted on 21/11/07 at 03:38 AM Reply With Quote
And another Rescued attachment 100_1332.jpg
Rescued attachment 100_1332.jpg

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gator

posted on 21/11/07 at 03:42 AM Reply With Quote
And one more! Rescued attachment 100_1324.jpg
Rescued attachment 100_1324.jpg

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CGILL

posted on 21/11/07 at 05:35 AM Reply With Quote
http://www.constructorscarclub.org.nz/profiles/profile-brucetur.html

http://www.saker.co.nz


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rpmagazine

posted on 21/11/07 at 09:01 AM Reply With Quote
early 2wd and 4wd boxes are weak. Late model are good.
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RazMan

posted on 21/11/07 at 09:24 AM Reply With Quote
After seeing the Murtaya at the various shows this year I was really impressed with the Scooby engine - really compact and with a low CofG. Power potential is good too - 400bhp+ is achievable without too much investment.
The Saker used the Legacy engine and box didn't it?





Cheers,
Raz

When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box

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Delinquent

posted on 21/11/07 at 09:41 AM Reply With Quote
we were discussing using a boxer type engine on Pistonheads a couple of weeks back - after I started thinking about using the entire drivetrain from a Boxster. By my reckoning the advantages in the lowered C of G and compactness of the engine make it a very worthwhile avenue.

a 911 turbo engine has been used in an Ultima, so width doesn't appear to be an issue - although triangulation of the chassis would appear more difficult to start with, when you consider how shallow the whole engine can be you can carry out substantial triangulation above it, just make it bolt in so the engine has an easy exit path.

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rontyler

posted on 21/11/07 at 09:47 PM Reply With Quote
Gator,
Thanks for the pics. What are the tranny designations for those, or what cars did they come from?

quote:
Originally posted by rpmagazine
early 2wd and 4wd boxes are weak. Late model are good.


Define late/early? Is the weakness of the early trannys something thats addressable?

quote:
Originally posted by CGILL
http://www.constructorscarclub.org.nz/profiles/profile-brucetur.html

http://www.saker.co.nz




Thanks!

quote:
Originally posted by Delinquent
a 911 turbo engine has been used in an Ultima, so width doesn't appear to be an issue - although triangulation of the chassis would appear more difficult to start with, when you consider how shallow the whole engine can be you can carry out substantial triangulation above it, just make it bolt in so the engine has an easy exit path.


Precisely! My early drawings lead me to believe its not unreasonable...








It puts the whole powertrain below the tops of the tires.

That drawing is +/- an inch so its worthless for anything other than pondering. Clearly, it would need a few tweeks to work. And, like you say, the top would need to be removable.





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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gator

posted on 22/11/07 at 03:39 AM Reply With Quote
Hi there, the 4WD engine/box I have is from an import half cut Liberty EJ20T (single turbo) ref TY752VB1AA. The 2WD box ref TM752RH1AA was sourced separately. I assume it to be a Liberty prior to MY98 as Scoobies seem to be totally 4WD from about then. Regards, Alan.
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CGILL

posted on 22/11/07 at 06:52 AM Reply With Quote
Re COG of 'baru engine... don't be fooled, the crank location is much higher in the block than an I4, the centerline of the crank is also the centerline of the main shaft of the box, the diff output is much lower than this, so for a clubman type car, either the engine needs to be located high, or the axles run at large angles, most of the weight advantage is from an all aluminium block and heads, although the EJ is a hell of a lot heaver than the early EA series engine. Honda B16 vtec engine and box are reasonably lighter
Saker use FWD subaru box, some use 4wd with the guts chopped out and the tail capped, they are stronger. The hole in the center of the chassis for the wide engine behind the wide driver cabin would need bolt in stress members I would say that can be removed for engine removal, the sound would be awesome

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kb58

posted on 22/11/07 at 04:42 PM Reply With Quote
I don't know about the sound... The U.S. Subaru STi sounds just like a six-cylinder that has two spark plug wires pulled off. At least it sounds that way to me.





Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html

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kikiturbo

posted on 22/11/07 at 06:56 PM Reply With Quote
it depends on the exhaust manifold... a normal impreza wrx or STI usually runs a asymetric unequal length exhaust manifold which is not that good for power but has a distinct burbly sound... a more powerfull japanese spec C model (used asa a basis for group N racing) has a symetric equal length manifold that sounds really normal by comparison..
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rontyler

posted on 28/11/07 at 02:19 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CGILL
Re COG of 'baru engine... don't be fooled, the crank location is much higher in the block than an I4, the centerline of the crank is also the centerline of the main shaft of the box, the diff output is much lower than this, so for a clubman type car, either the engine needs to be located high, or the axles run at large angles,



Agreed. However, its 'profile' is still quite low... top of the is case several inches below tops of tires. Not very empirical I digress, but anecdotal perhaps?. Most of the transverse fours and sixes can only dream such a claim ;-). Maybe a better way to state my view is 'packaging'. At the rudimentary level I'm at, it seems... um... better <cring>.

This example is highly generic, but it illustrates my point...

Subaru package (axles would intersect about 1 1/2" lower at tranny)...



SHO V6 with red line indicating tops of same diameter tires...



quote:
Originally posted by CGILL
most of the weight advantage is from an all aluminium block and heads, although the EJ is a hell of a lot heaver than the early EA series engine. Honda B16 vtec engine and box are reasonably lighter



The EJ's tranny looks like a behemoth. Can't even venture a guess at this point, so I'll concede on that note. But... the engine itself is pretty paltry in my experience, tripping the scales under 250lbs complete....

http://forums.hybridz.org/showpost.php?p=802813&postcount=3


Anyone have weight data on the EJ tranny, AWD and/or 2WD?





Regards, Ron Tyler

"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."

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rpmagazine

posted on 28/11/07 at 12:24 PM Reply With Quote
The 6G75 3.8lt I am using weighs 275kg complete with transaxle, so it is no lightweight. The height of engine relative to driveshaft is partly set by approach/GC issues in FWD cars. However the transverse engines have an important asset in that the engine and transaxle can be rotated to lower the engine or the bell housing can be modified to achieve the same outcome. For me with the heavy V6 this means that the crankshaft can (with a lot of work) sit 40-50mm below that I could achieve with the Subie. However I have no idea of relative CoG heights overall.
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kreb

posted on 28/11/07 at 03:03 PM Reply With Quote
Here's a rather cool Subbie-powered middie:

http://www.blastautomotive.com/





Stalker V-6

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2511

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