procomp
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| posted on 7/2/11 at 01:23 PM |
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Hi
Err Matt it was the car that you personaly built yourself and sold to the raining Metro champion end of last year. !!!!
Cheers Matt
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TMC
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| posted on 7/2/11 at 01:35 PM |
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In which case I stand corrected.
They are all genuine Caged items though, including that one, which I'm pleased to say does not represent the quality of work we are able to
produce since TMC became a fully fledged, operating company in 2009.
And if it is that car, it was sold a few years ago (2006-ish I think...) just to further separate that one example from any commercial interest we may
have in fitting cages to Locosts!
Matt
[Edited on 7/2/11 by TMC]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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procomp
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| posted on 7/2/11 at 02:56 PM |
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Hi
Matt you have a very short memory. The car was advertised last year and sold. And as for the CAGED kits how come Brian Mitcham openly stated on the
Yahoo forum he was supplying the roll cages in kit form as he was havingf them made by his freind down the road from him and supplying yourselves of
witch i have a copy of the message. And how come Caged deny any knowledge of supplying the cage in kit form because they know that they/ any company
are not allowed to supply an FIA ROPS cage in kit form for home fitment. Which is exactly as it says on the certificate that goes with the ID number
on the cages that you supply And it also clearley stated that the only company allowed to fitt that cage with that ID number is caged. Have you not
even looked at the certificate.
And i do belive that the MSA via the 750Mc told both you and Brian to stop what you where doing imediatly.
Cheers Matt
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TMC
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| posted on 7/2/11 at 03:15 PM |
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I have no interest in opening this debate again, it's been done to death many times before.
If that's the car that Lee Mcnamara bought, it left us after Tony Childe-Freeman raced it in 2006/7. The one advertised last year was a totally
different car and didnt sell, so we used it for the majority of 2010. It has now been sold, but definitely not to a Metro champion!
Matt
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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hicost blade
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| posted on 7/2/11 at 07:15 PM |
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umm I love it when people find such artistic uses for bird s##t, spot the difference:
 
Heres the reason why ROPS was introduced. Cage manufacturers illegaly selling so called FIA certificated ROPS to people who can't weld and letting them fit them. !!!
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ernie
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 07:07 PM |
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just to add my personal view of someone who has a Brian Mitchum-Caged roll cage fitted to my race car.
To start, I have a great deal of time for TMC & Procomp, who over the past 6 years at various meetings have helped me when in dire need.
So please correct me if I'm wrong on any point
1, any person can design/fabricate/fit a cage if it complies to 750 & MSA regs
2, Caged design complies to regs
3, If Caged fabs & fits cage it can carry the MSA sticker
4, If you buy the Caged design, weld and fit it yourself, it will comply but cannot carry the MSA sticker
So my Caged unit is ok, if I have complete confidence in the person who welded and fitted it. ( it was done by a professional welder via Steve Hills),
but should not carry the MSA sticker.
5, I would have had the procomp one but SWMBO had cut my budget to the bone that year
I did have a ST/Aries original, but it was for a 7ft driver, very ridged but heavy
PANDE FIRE & SECURITY SYSTEMS
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steveiow
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 09:24 PM |
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Correct as far as I am aware according to the Blue Book.
To add,
6. Any cage not designed specifically to the drawings in the Blue Book must be manufactured and fitted by a ROPS certificated company. You will get
a certificate detailing the cage id number and company who made it/fitted it. This info will also be on a plate on the cage.
All covered in the 2011 Blue Book sections K1-K1.8 (p152-158). Specifically regarding exceptions to these requirements is Section K1.5 on P156:
The only exceptions to the foregoing requirements for saloon, single seater and sports cars are as follows:
1.5.1. Safety Cage manufacturers may make application to the MSA for a Roll Over Protection System (ROPS) Certificate to be issued.
Note: ROPS manufacturers wishing to make application for such a certificate should contact the MSA Technical Department in order to obtain details of
the requirements to be met and the fees payable. Subject to these requirements being met a ROPS Certificate will be raised and issued. Duly authorised
copies of this certificate containing a drawing, photographs, a copy of the manufacturers declaration the the ROPS meets the required regulations and
a copy of the stress engineers declaration that the design is capable of withstanding the loadings specified in the regulations must be available to
event scrutineers.
1.5.2. Each ROPS manufactured after 1.1.97 for which the MSA or the FIA has issued a ROPS (Rollcage) Certificate must bear an identification plate
which details the manufacturer and the manufacturers part number allocated to the cage. Details of this identity plate are to be included on the ROPS
(Rollcage) Certificate.
2012 Locost Race Car #12 - for everything Locost Racing: www.SEWC.co.uk
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loggyboy
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 09:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ernie
just to add my personal view of someone who has a Brian Mitchum-Caged roll cage fitted to my race car.
To start, I have a great deal of time for TMC & Procomp, who over the past 6 years at various meetings have helped me when in dire need.
So please correct me if I'm wrong on any point
1, any person can design/fabricate/fit a cage if it complies to 750 & MSA regs
2, Caged design complies to regs
3, If Caged fabs & fits cage it can carry the MSA sticker
4, If you buy the Caged design, weld and fit it yourself, it will comply but cannot carry the MSA sticker
So my Caged unit is ok, if I have complete confidence in the person who welded and fitted it. ( it was done by a professional welder via Steve Hills),
but should not carry the MSA sticker.
5, I would have had the procomp one but SWMBO had cut my budget to the bone that year
I did have a ST/Aries original, but it was for a 7ft driver, very ridged but heavy
Sort of correct. I dont know the caged design, but if its is FIA/ROPs certified then its likely that it wont comply with blue bookd regs, because if
it does comply, then it would have been pointless paying to get it certified.
If the caged design is certified, and is therefore unlikely Blue book compliant, then only caged can supply and install it.
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TMC
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 10:41 PM |
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quote:
Sort of correct. I dont know the caged design, but if its is FIA/ROPs certified then its likely that it wont comply with blue bookd regs, because if
it does comply, then it would have been pointless paying to get it certified.
If the caged design is certified, and is therefore unlikely Blue book compliant, then only caged can supply and install it.
Almost. If it is certified to be supplied as a kit, as the Caged design is, it can be installed by an individual.
It is then down to scrutineers to act on behalf of the FIA/MSA and advise if the installation is unsuitable or unsafe.
This applies to the vast majority of cages sold by the likes of Demon Tweeks who supply certified kits.
That's as I understand it anyway, happy to be educated otherwise.
There is a certain irony to discussing who can weld and install cages onto chassis that were always intended to be built by an amateur welder in a
shed... But I think that's just my sense of humour!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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General Bilko
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 11:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TMC
quote:
Sort of correct. I dont know the caged design, but if its is FIA/ROPs certified then its likely that it wont comply with blue bookd regs, because if
it does comply, then it would have been pointless paying to get it certified.
If the caged design is certified, and is therefore unlikely Blue book compliant, then only caged can supply and install it.
Almost. If it is certified to be supplied as a kit, as the Caged design is, it can be installed by an individual.
It is then down to scrutineers to act on behalf of the FIA/MSA and advise if the installation is unsuitable or unsafe.
This applies to the vast majority of cages sold by the likes of Demon Tweeks who supply certified kits.
That's as I understand it anyway, happy to be educated otherwise.
There is a certain irony to discussing who can weld and install cages onto chassis that were always intended to be built by an amateur welder in a
shed... But I think that's just my sense of humour!
TMC Matt, I thought you said you didn't want to open the debate again  but your logic looks sound to me
In the blue book section K1.5 details what safety cage manufacturers have to do to get a ROPS certificate, and there's nothing in this section
that talks about who installs it. The Caged kit has all the documentation specified
K1.3.8 talks about welding and mentions following the manufacturers instructions, so clearly "manufacture" doesn't mean
"install"
Procomp Matt, over to you......  (but use spell checker first  )
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Mike Wood
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| posted on 13/2/11 at 09:27 AM |
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Hi
Is it still possible [not desirable] to build a Locost that has only a rear cage that can meet the MSA Blue Book technical safety section regs on roll
over protection, for
a) racing
&
b) speed events (sprints and hillclimbs)
Note I am asking about Blue Book regs for safety and type of event - I haven't mentioned additional local formula or local class regs. Yes, I
know I need to re-read the Blue Book regs, but I am confused whether the change that has happened in paddocks for full cages is partly due to
competitors quite sensibly wanting to go beyond the regs (for speed events?) for extra safety with a chassis stiffening bonus, or have the regs made a
full cage mandatory these days in race events (and speed too)?
My reason for asking is that it used to be possible to race with only a rear cage (that met the Blue Book drawings, with correct material spec,
diagonals, mounting points, helmet clearance etc) - for example see pics at: http://www.locost-racing.com/index.html
Have the MSA Blue Book regs for racing now made it only possible to race an open two-seater sports car with a front and rear cage, and for Seven-esque
cars, a side intrusion (arm protection) bar too? What about for speed events in road car classes (as well as ModProd and Sports Libre)?
I want to do a very occassional speed event in a road Locost, that doesn't look like a race tin top that has had the lid peeled off, and that I
can physically get into. Also I still want something that looks like a Seven of old, that doesn't have the very agressive Terminator 3 metalwork
that screams very loudly 'racing car' on the road. Yeah I know, safety should be before beauty, and that a Locaterfield isn't
exactly inconspicuous anyway!
I realise that a lot of rear only cages don't properly clear the helmet, both vertically and taking a line from scuttle top to rollbar top, so
won't be in line with MSA regs and probably never were even when they were racing/sprinting/hillclimbing!
I know, full cage it best. But can you still have an MSA compliant rear roll over bar only, probably quite a tall one?
Cheers
Mike
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 13/2/11 at 10:13 AM |
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Hi Mike
For speed events in road going you're fine with just the rear roll bar, theoretically even that's only recommended, but I wouldn't
even contemplate it without one.
I would go for a diagonally braced rear hoop with twin back stays as my minimum.
There's a few cars in road going with full cages (without the side impact bars normally) but it's not a requirement of the rules, just
competitor choice.
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MikeR
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| posted on 13/2/11 at 12:30 PM |
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For the 750mc club locost rules state you must have a full cage - it changed a couple of years after the championship started.
Basically - they've specified it must be front and rear hoop, these must either comply with the blue book or be certified in some way.
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mikemph
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| posted on 14/6/11 at 11:48 AM |
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I have a question about how the cage is attched to the chassis.
The blue book states the area of the plate it is a attached to either by welding or bolting that is fine as I am welding mine in position.
But can I mount it like this (pic below) where a small section of tube welded to a plate then the end of the cage welded to that... if that makes
sense!!
Would that kind of thing pass scrutineering or MSA standards? Anyone that can help soon would be great so I can complete the welding of my cage
ASAP...... I want to get chassis sent away for powder coating
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