Printable Version | Subscribe | Add to Favourites
<<  1    2    3    4  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: mighty twincharged kitten
froggy

posted on 16/3/11 at 10:32 PM Reply With Quote
mighty twincharged kitten

after eight years and two builds its time for a change so going from bec to cec

evo 1


single tl1000s with a 50hp shot of nitrous

evo 2


wide track and bigger brakes

evo 3


twin tl1000s with progressive nitrous system making 210whp and an extra 100hp of nitrous for drag and general hooning .
martin keenan did the bulk of the build and chris mason wired it .

no issues with the build but the constant maintenance and noise issues got really tiresome as well as awful fuel economy it was time for a change .



doesnt look much but this little sleeper makes 485hp and 470lb/ft on a bone stock 2.0 engine ,no fancy head gasket just bolted a big holset truck turbo 630cc injectors and a 3 bar map sensor and i have run this for nearly 2 years with no issues apart from destroying a few gearboxes ,the downside is it takes a bit of waking up so the power is from 3500-7000rpm .i have never known a stock engine take so much abuse without complaining and for the money i think the saab 204 takes some beating going from 150hp to nearly 500hp with no mods so it makes sense to make better use of it and stick it in the back of the kitten
that leaves a big hole up to 3500rpm so looked into adding a supercharger after the turbo to give good response low down and get the turbo spooled up around 3000rpm





supercharger is from a 2007 slk merk and is an eaton m62 which on the pulley ratio will make 6psi with the turbo making 14psi compounds the boost to 24psi which is around 450hp and on paper should be making 300lb/ft at 3000rpm and hold 350-400lbft all the way to 6500rpm .
an air to air intercooler goes between the turbo and supercharger then into a chargecooler before the throttle body .

my dilemma now is do i go for bigger wheels as i love the handling on the 13" wheels and will have some issues making room in the footwells to accomodate bigger rims ,i didnt have brake issues with the twin tl engines but im looking at twice the power and nearly three times the torque so brakes could be a big issue

[Edited on 16/3/11 by froggy]





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
mrwibble

posted on 16/3/11 at 10:41 PM Reply With Quote
well that looks like great fun . somewhat confused by the seemingly random saab, is that just a runabout while the project is the... err... is that a reliant van?
View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
tony-devon

posted on 16/3/11 at 10:44 PM Reply With Quote
ha ha, you would get on with Ian an absoulute treat

not quite in your league, but a nutter all the same

N/A Cosworth, accralite pistons, kent L1/BD3 cams, twin 45's, 250bhp + N2O
Fitted in a.....Reliant Kitten (modified a lot!). 11.88@114.47



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_sNPbKQbM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0woo_Nc8M

theres loads of footage of that lil yellow car on youtube always makes me smile, hes a clever bloke, but got a very dry sense of humour, never know if he really is taking the wee or joking LOL

[Edited on 16/3/11 by tony-devon]





heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 16/3/11 at 10:52 PM Reply With Quote
i did a photo shoot with ian a couple of years back but we never managed to meet up for a head to head drag race while i had the twin tl 1000,s in although i was running consistent 11.5 1/4mile .

the saab is where ive pinched the engine from and yes it was a kitten van but now will be a saloon as i need to let a lot of heat out of the rear and get easy access to see whats going on or rather falling off


thats the dyno run from the 2.0 saab lump thats now in the back of the kitten , ive added a quaife atb to the saab gearbox





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
tony-devon

posted on 16/3/11 at 10:55 PM Reply With Quote
thought you would know him, you nutters all together LOL

was that the PPC feature and shoot,

I just cant help but smile when that car starts, its mental and handles like its on rails

yours must be brain mushing





heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 16/3/11 at 11:04 PM Reply With Quote
im hoping this will be the last time i re build the kitten as im taking a leaf out of ians book and adding some creature comforts like padded seats and decent sound insulation

there was a lot of metalwork holding the twin bike engines together so i dont think the new drivetrain will add a lot of weight so i should still be around the 750kg mark when its finished





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
ashg

posted on 16/3/11 at 11:50 PM Reply With Quote
very well done on the engine choice. the b204 rocks


Great minds think alike. I been pottering away on this all winter






Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!

Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 17/3/11 at 12:34 AM Reply With Quote
Not wishing to be contrary, but how are you getting 450hp from 630cc injectors? Monster fuel pressure?
View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
kb58

posted on 17/3/11 at 01:33 AM Reply With Quote
Good question. That usually takes 750 - 1000 cc injectors.





Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
ashg

posted on 17/3/11 at 07:22 AM Reply With Quote
it could be done running batch fire as you get an extra pulse on the exhaust stroke. the saab being a boosted engine doesn't have much overlap on the cams so its quite possible.





Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!

Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
MakeEverything

posted on 17/3/11 at 07:50 AM Reply With Quote
Quality. Would love a go in that.





Kindest Regards,
Richard.

...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
Mr Whippy

posted on 17/3/11 at 09:43 AM Reply With Quote
what a great project I however would not love a ride in it as it's too scary





Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 17/3/11 at 03:31 PM Reply With Quote
The 630 cc injectors are good for just over 500hp at. 2.5 bar pressure . These siemens deka 630cc are popular with lots of turbo engines as they still have good control low dow. I'm running 750cc in the kitten to give me some headroom if I want to go over 550hp but I'm pretty sure 450hp will be plenty.

It always felt like it could handle more power when I had the twin bike engines but that was down to the lack of torque low down although it still went well peak torque was 170lb/ft at 5500rpm will be closer to 450lb/ft with the Saab lump .

I didn't buy kurts book until the twin engined build was done so I can copy a lot of ideas from kimini , the main one is using a saloon rear end instead of the van body .





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 24/3/11 at 07:23 PM Reply With Quote
bit more progress today ,finally got the gearchange right and was worth the effort to re-make the brackets a couple of times .

the exhaust is as far as i can go until i figure out the design for the silencer ,marathon pipework session tomorrow getting all the boost pipe runs sorted with as little silicone as i can get away with










[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
cheapracer
Builder






Posts 156
Registered 29/11/08
Member Is Offline

Photo Archive Go!
Building: The Worlds next big thing of course!

posted on 30/3/11 at 05:03 PM Reply With Quote
That is awesome!

Like the 5 link DeDion too





It's coming....

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
bi22le

posted on 30/3/11 at 05:33 PM Reply With Quote
Very nice. That will have some silly BHP \ tonne figure, Im sure you have worked it out.

Around the 500 mark I guess.





Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!

Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1

Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 30/3/11 at 09:23 PM Reply With Quote
No idea about the power to weight but im more interested in the torque so il be happy with around 400hp peak even though the turbo on it's own made 500hp on the same engine .

It should make 250 lb/ft at 2500rpm ,300 at 3000 and 400lb/ft at 3700 then hold that right up to 7000 rpm at that hp level .

Going for it with water / meth injection will see closer to 600flywheel hp





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
T66

posted on 30/3/11 at 09:49 PM Reply With Quote
dogs knob !!!!!



Love it






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Neville Jones

posted on 2/4/11 at 10:46 AM Reply With Quote
You said you are using the supercharger to blow into the turbo.

Normal practice is to do it the other way, with a simple mechanical diverter to bypass the super when the turbo exceeds the blower pressure.

This system has been in use on Detroit diesels since the second war or more. I've seen your system tried on race boat engines, and it can have problems with the seals on the turbo. When reverted to the reverse, no problems.

Unless you're going to run the engine like this hard for extended periods, then you'll probably be OK. Hope so.

Cheers,
Nev.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 2/4/11 at 04:15 PM Reply With Quote
i didnt make it clear but the holset blows into the supercharger .the hardware is good for 600+hp but charge air temps will be the limiting factor . 300whp will be ample in a light car so 400fly hp should be repeatable if the intercooling and inlet temps can be kept under control .

water/meth injection is another option but id be happier not to have to use it if possible





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 4/4/11 at 09:42 AM Reply With Quote
I got to say I still don't understand how you're supposing you can extract 450hp from that size of injector, as above, and as far as I'm aware it's jus not possible at stock fuel pressures - fuel flow at 100% doesn't deliver enough energy in the form of chemicals to create that power? You need 750+cc/min per port to get that, and that's with them locked open?

http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php
Batch fire doesn't mean you're doing 2 squirts per cycle, it just means you're firing all at the same time. If you run 2 squirts per cycle you'll be running into problems at high RPM due to the injection pulsewidth sum being longer than a cycle, two pulses per cycle makes no sense at all as you just add more dead time (pintle movement) - you might as well just open once and for longer.


Still, interesting project, I'm enjoying the details.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 4/4/11 at 10:56 AM Reply With Quote
Go on uk saabs and there are a few cars making near to 500 hp on the deka 630 cc injectors . The dyno from my 9k showing 486hp is on 630cc injectors and guys in the states have pushed them to 430 whp on pump fuel.

I'm the wrong guy to prove they can make 500 hp but I've had 10hp either side of 500hp from 3 different dyno,s

I'm going up to 750cc for the kitten but injector dc was just under 90% on the 630,

Have a search on the siemens 630 deka injectors for flw rates





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 4/4/11 at 11:27 AM Reply With Quote
All the posts I just read on uk saabs suggested 275-300 is about the limit on the 630s? Many suggesting raising the fuel pressure with a better pump and adjustable FPR to eek a little more out?

<edit>

I've just been reading further and it seems those claiming higher are doubling the fuel pressure. Explains it!

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
froggy

posted on 4/4/11 at 11:47 AM Reply With Quote
I'm using a walbro pump at stock pressure , look at siemens site the 630,s will make 100whp per cylinder comfortably.

The standard aero injectors will support 300 hp as I've done it a few times





[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
coyoteboy

posted on 4/4/11 at 12:24 PM Reply With Quote
I'm assuming something odd is happening then because that's different to every other car and set of injectors I've ever met and every tuner I've ever spoken to. It's a pretty standard accepted requirement to fit SARD 800cc injectors to get 450hp from a 2 litre 4 cyl in just about every other car, using stock fuel pressure. Every injector calculator available will place 750cc injectors at their limits at 450hp, so how are these any different? By definition a specified fuel flow limits the power throughput (though clearly at higher pressures you could put much more power through them, but you specify stock pressure which is 43psi at which the 630cc rating is given?).
I'm genuinely interested as I've been considering an adjustable rising rate FPR to compensate for my tiny 440cc injectors as it is.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
<<  1    2    3    4  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top






Website design and SEO by Studio Montage

All content 2001-16 LocostBuilders. Reproduction prohibited
Opinions expressed in public posts are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
the views of other users or any member of the LocostBuilders team.
Running XMB 1.8 Partagium [ 2002 XMB Group] on Apache under CentOS Linux
Founded, built and operated by ChrisW.