TMC
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 01:31 PM |
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Pub conversation - V-twin engines in a car?
Not having been that involved in BECs, but working on our Paradigm project got a conversation started...
We were discussing an engine change as the ZZR1100 is heavy and underpowered, and a drop to sub-1000cc would make a lot of class structures easier to
access, so we're looking at ZX10R's, R1's CBR1000's etc.
A v-twin was suggested, and I have to say I love the idea of the noise they make, but why arent they more widely used in cars? Is there something
about their power delivery that doesnt lend itself to 4 wheels?
Figured the answer must lie amongst the Locost Builders collective wisdom...
Also, anyone have any opinions on £ to performance of the various 1000cc options? And ease of use in a car application?
Cheers,
Matt
http://www.tmcmotorsport.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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tegwin
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 01:38 PM |
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Not terribly knowledgeable on this subject but I would say its down to cost..
A highly tuned V-twin is going to cost considerably more than a highly tuned 4 pot.... simply because there are more 4 pots about!
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Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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mac1ZR
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 02:31 PM |
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Had a zx10r in a Mac#1, absolutley brilliant engine, no need for sump baffles, dry sumps etc, just a superb rapid motor.
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daniel mason
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 02:49 PM |
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Cbr 1000rr seems to be the motor of choice these days I think. Reliability wise they seem superb
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bi22le
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 03:11 PM |
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Most of racers use cbr1000, there must be a reason.
Regarding V engines. I did some research on this ages ago as i wanted a v bec. There is one or two on here in a seven. I think the problem with them
is that they are too tall. When you consider the air intake in the middle of the v.
The sdr storm uses a v twin from a storm a i think there is the or vtr powered one about too.
I think you should go for it!!
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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TMC
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 03:23 PM |
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Bi22le, I actually found your thread on Piston Heads about it, and it started to make a bit more sense as to why theyre not used so much. The figures
dont seem to add up as well as they do for an inline 4...
I think I'll stick with the CBR or ZX10R plan for now.
I've got to get rid of all the old ZZR1100 bits first though!
On a different note, just watched your video of the sub 56s lap of Brands. I reckon with a bit of coaching you could be comfortably into the low
54s/high 53s...
http://www.tmcmotorsport.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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BenB
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 04:14 PM |
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STM did a V2 using an SP1 engine. And some of us have V4s 
I think it comes down to the fact that inline engines are more common and therefore more likely to be the subject of the attention of tuners and
aftermarket people.
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RJK350
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 04:19 PM |
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Got an Aprilia RSV twin in my MK Indy. Dry sumped as standard, all fits upper the bonnet.
A good bit of torque and a lovely sound. Engine must weigth about 50kg. Produces 137 bhp at the crank.
I'm pleased with the performance.
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TMC
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 04:31 PM |
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Just been doing a little more research into this and I'm struggling to find a V twin with the sort of performance figures we're after.
With over 160bhp on offer from most of the inline 4's, it seems it might be tricky to find anything like it from a twin without spending mega
money. Happy to be corrected if anyone knows any different though?!
http://www.tmcmotorsport.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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progers
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 04:33 PM |
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Regarding 1000cc engine choice, there is not much to choose between the ZX10r, GSXR1000 and CBR1000rr (in 2008 -> guise). They all make similar
power and have been proven reliable in racing (with appropriate sump mods etc). I personally have gone for the K7/8 GSXR and won the RGB championship
with it so its not short of power. If you are worried about cost the ZX10r is the bargain of the bunch being half the price of CBR1000 and Gixxer
these days. There are more CBR's on the RGB grid than anything due primarily to the support of Andy at AB performance who is a Honda man through
and through. Nothing wrong with that, he's a great sponsor. I just went with something else to promote diversity :-)
Cheers
Paul
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TMC
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 04:38 PM |
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Thanks Paul.
I know this is a "piece of string" style question, but any guide on prices for each?
http://www.tmcmotorsport.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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mac1ZR
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 05:33 PM |
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Just go with the ZX10R mate, no probs with oil surge with this engine, i have had 2 without problems, and i know of one which has done many track
days, which has been driven extremely hard on every occasion.
Contact Malc at Yorkshire Engines, he will supply a quality unit with loom.
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scootz
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 07:22 PM |
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The RSV engines trumps the VTR in most (all?) departments. It's a good bit lighter, produces a fantastic torque-curve, and it has a dry-sump as
standard!
It's Evolution Baby!
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 07:57 PM |
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I had a TL1000R bike, and If I were going to fit a twin, it would be one of those. Cracking engine, but not an easy ride.
I did experience 180mph on the clocks once (off road of course) and it was a right animal round town. The torque is very addictive.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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scootz
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| posted on 6/5/12 at 08:07 PM |
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I'm also a big fan of the TL1000R bike, but the RSV lump trumps it too!
It's Evolution Baby!
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progers
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 09:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by TMC
Thanks Paul.
I know this is a "piece of string" style question, but any guide on prices for each?
For 2008 engines (incl loom etc) your are looking at 2K+ for CBR1000/GSXR, around 1K for the ZX10r. You might get them cheaper if you strike lucky on
e-bay..... All will give you 180+bhp. You will need to budget ~ £450 for a billet sump (Andy Bates does them for CBR and ZX10) I bought mine from a
company called Rilltech in the US. No need for dry sump or accusump. There are a few tricks needed to get them all to produce full power out of the
bike, I can advise on the GSXR, if you go that route.
Cheers
Paul
[Edited on 7/5/12 by progers]
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jossey
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 09:37 AM |
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Go with zx10r :-)
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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franky
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 09:51 AM |
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I'd go with one of the new ducati 1200cc v twins. Remember people are like sheep and like the easy/tested route.
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scootz
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 10:16 AM |
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1200 Duke engines are still very pricey Frankie... but other than that, they are indeed fab.
It's Evolution Baby!
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franky
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 10:23 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
1200 Duke engines are still very pricey Frankie... but other than that, they are indeed fab.
Or a ktm 1150 engine, ducati 1098, morini 1200
My choice would be a honda sp1 for the gear driven cam wine and HRC'ness!
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mac1ZR
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 10:28 AM |
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http://www.yorkshireengines.co.uk/website/Home.html
Ask Malc to get you a zx10 plus loom. No need for any sump alterations, all you wil need is a power commander to get you through any emissions
issues.
If the bike ignition barrel and key is not supplied with the loom, which it usually isnt then you will need to put a resistor in the igition circuit
to get it to fire, simples,
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progers
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 11:44 AM |
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I beg to differ on the "no need for sump alterations". You might get away with it on the road, but for any serious track action where you
are using track biased rubber, a modified sump will be needed. I have seen more than one blow up due to oil surge.
- Paul
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mac1ZR
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 11:54 AM |
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Likewise, i beg to differ, i have built 1 zetec engined car, 1 with Gsxr1000, which does need sump mods, and 2 with ZX10 engines. Two friends with
ZX10 engines , serious track use on slicks with absolutely no issues. So my experience with this engine is first hand not hearsay!!
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TMC
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 12:23 PM |
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I'd love to get a big ducati, but two major issues stand in the way, ideally I want something under 1000cc to make it easier to fit into various
championship class structures, and also cost is a major problem!
The zx10r is sounding like the best option so far, and the Paradigm is on F3 slicks, with plenty of aero, so I'm expecting cornering forces
approaching 2g... I dont really want to take any risks with oil surge!
Jossey, got your U2U, will respond shortly.
Cheers
Matt
http://www.tmcmotorsport.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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progers
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| posted on 7/5/12 at 12:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mac1ZR
Likewise, i beg to differ, i have built 1 zetec engined car, 1 with Gsxr1000, which does need sump mods, and 2 with ZX10 engines. Two friends with
ZX10 engines , serious track use on slicks with absolutely no issues. So my experience with this engine is first hand not hearsay!!
I am not doubting your experience, it is a good datapoint. However, there is a significant difference between a couple of mates doing trackdays and
race biased cars being pushed to their limits by an experienced driver. The fact is, the more G generated (and for a longer time) you will see surge
on a standard sump. It makes alot of sense to have a modified sump and protect your investment, especially in the case of TMC who is building a very
focussed race car.
Cheers
Paul
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