stuleah
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| posted on 1/2/11 at 10:27 PM |
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Ktm's solicitors have been in touch. Because the car looks like theirs we have been told to stop producing it. Unfortunately we are not
millionaires so cant afford to see if we have any chance of carrying on .
At present we are producing a new body that will fit the chassis. It will be radical like the Valdris but will be of my own design.
Will post pics when we get started.
Absolutely gutted at present as had sold seven kits.
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Doug68
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 05:04 AM |
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Well that bites butt and a bit surprising really in some ways and understandable in others which is no consolation to you I am sure.
Maybe talk to some other manufacturers that have been in the same boat in the past? You might learn that they've no leg to stand on. It seems
to me a cloudy area given some Co have been shut down in the past and others have carried on regardless.
Doug. 1TG
Sports Car Builders WA
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balidey
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 08:12 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by stuleah
At present we are producing a new body that will fit the chassis. It will be radical like the Valdris but will be of my own design.
Will post pics when we get started.
Can't wait to see the photos..... then I'm going to make one that looks identical and sell it as a kit to other people for less money than
you are selling your kits.
 The above is obviously a joke, but it does highlight why KTM acted as they did.
Building a car is not the hardest part in making a car. IMHO the styling is the most difficult and often most critical part of the car. Look at how
many nice looking kit cars have been styled by a well respected designer. And how many other cars just look 'wrong'. Even when sharing
similar design heritage.
You obviously have the talent to make and sell a kit car, but again in my opinion, just copying someone elses styling because it looks good to you was
a mistake. Glad to hear you are getting your own design sorted.
And I just hope the quote "It will be radical " doesn't mean you are going to copy the Radical
[Edited on 2/2/11 by balidey]
Dutch bears have terrible skin due to their clogged paws
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Strontium Dog
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 08:37 AM |
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I can't tell one hatch back from another these days. They all look the same to me and are very similar in styling design. Surely all the
manufacturers should be suing each other and trying to work out who was first to fit four wheels to a small box with a tailgate!
This story is enough to make sure I will NEVER buy a KTM EVER! And it's not that the XBow is my cup of tea but I might have bought one of their
bikes.
It should also encourage you to carry on with your work. If you can build a car that threatens a large manufacturer like KTM then you must be doing
something right. Change the styling and then use the publicity KTM have generated for you to sell it. The car that scared KTM!
It's not like you are competing for the same section of the market either is it. People that buy the KTM have more money than sense and or
don't know one end of a spanner from the other.
Good luck for the future (just don't copy my 7 design.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh wait, some bloke called Chapman already did!)
[Edited on 2/2/11 by Strontium Dog]
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stuleah
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 06:58 PM |
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"And I just hope the quote "It will be radical " doesn't mean you are going to copy the Radical"
Dam now i dont know what to do. LOL
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Gakes
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 08:41 PM |
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They cant stop you from building or designing a"similar" looking car. Thats bull sh!t!!!!
There are no copyrights or patents on vehicle body design anywhere in the world. I've dealt with many patents already and never came across
patents on a car body design, perhaps an innovative system or arrangement of parts only. If I was you I'd say ____'em and carry on....7
kits, you should definitely carry on buddy, keep up the good work
[Edited on 2/2/11 by Gakes]
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stuleah
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 09:56 PM |
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Apparently we are breaching their "Intellectual property rights."
Do a search for what it means. Wikipedia gives a good description if you can understand it!
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Nash
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| posted on 2/2/11 at 11:21 PM |
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What IP do they have? I would ask them to give you the details of that. Unless they have a trade mark or patent on a specific component or group of
components then I believe they are on thin ice. It appears they are relying on you not putting up a struggle. Simply ask for the evidence to
substansiate there request. That should not cost you anything.
Good luck and don't fold too soon.
........Neil
It's What You Do Next That Counts.
Build It, Buy It, Drive It:
Southern Kit Car Club
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Kwik
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| posted on 3/2/11 at 02:21 PM |
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even if selling this design of car is perfectly legal and they are just trying to scare you, i would change it anyway.
not that its ugly or a bad design, but because of the reason stated above, you have built a car that scares a big company, you should feel proud and
use it to your advantage !
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Irony
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| posted on 3/2/11 at 03:13 PM |
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I would suggest that either your car is very good or KTM are very paranoid. I don't know the law but if KTM can legally do this why don't
other large car manufacturers threaten 'replica' manufacturers? There are lots of replica companies about and they don't seem to be
taken to court.
I think you should be proud of what you have created and seriously look into what KTM can actually do to stop you. Surely the fact that a large
manufacturer is bullying a tiny tiny business is newsworthy stuff. Might be a great source of free advertising.
Good luck
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 3/2/11 at 03:14 PM |
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"It was quite similar in appearance to, and so much better value than, a KTM Xbow that they made us change it"
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stuleah
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| posted on 4/2/11 at 08:19 AM |
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Lik the way your thinking. Have you got any copyrights on that last sentence or can i use it on my website. LOL
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Irony
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| posted on 4/2/11 at 09:17 AM |
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A few years back I worked on a advertising campaign with Tesco regarding Wrangler Jeans. Tesco bought up a huge stock of the Jeans and then sold them
off with a mark up 50p or a £1. Which meant that Tesco's were selling Wrangler jeans at £15-25 cheaper than anywhere else in the UK.
Wrangler's law firm were immediately intouch and told Tesco to take them off the shelves. Tesco immediately leaked the story to the press and
said stuff like 'We were only trying to give the best value to our customers' and 'At Tesco the customer comes first profit
second'. Tesco dragged its feet in getting stock off the shelves and all pairs bar a few were already gone. Wrangler said 'Tesco will
never be selling Wrangler again'. When the marketing report came back the whole 'Tesco puts customers over profit' message had been
broadcast on nearly all Terrestrial TV Channels including the 6 and 10 o'clock news. 20 national radio stations and 57 local stations.
Wrangler were thoroughly manipulated and it was a brilliant marketing coop by Tesco.
You may be able to turn the situation around to work in your favour - in a advertising perspective.
P.S It may have been Levi not Wrangler, I can't remember.
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orton1966
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| posted on 5/2/11 at 07:33 PM |
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Big Companies Often Try to Flex Muscle!
My own experience is big companies with legal departments try this kind of stuff because they can, often they know they wouldn’t win if it goes to
court but they know smaller companies will be intimidated and back off fearing the cost of legal action, there’re just flexing muscle!
If you want to carry on, write back, in a detailed professional manner (no need to pay a solicitor) detailing that you have not infringed their
intellectual property, state things like theirs is a carbon Monocoque, your is a traditional space frame, suspension geometry is different, whatever
major dimensions are different, drive train, wheel sizes etc basically quote all differences. Include photo’s of any similar vehicles even ones from
science-fiction especially anything that pre-dates the KTM. Also make it clear that you’re not “passing off” your creation as theirs or claiming it
has any link to them
Finally very firmly but politely finish by stating that because no part of your creation makes any use of their intellectual property and because
you’re not intentionally or inadvertently passing off your work as theirs you will be continuing with your project.
9 out of 10 you will hear nothing more, if they continue to push then you have to decide whether the fight is worth it.
[Edited on 5/2/11 by orton1966]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 04:48 PM |
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Check to see if the design has been protected - it's an interesting question as to whether the design is protected and whether you've
breached it.
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Irony
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 05:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by orton1966
My own experience is big companies with legal departments try this kind of stuff because they can, often they know they wouldn’t win if it goes to
court but they know smaller companies will be intimidated and back off fearing the cost of legal action, there’re just flexing muscle!
If you want to carry on, write back, in a detailed professional manner (no need to pay a solicitor) detailing that you have not infringed their
intellectual property, state things like theirs is a carbon Monocoque, your is a traditional space frame, suspension geometry is different, whatever
major dimensions are different, drive train, wheel sizes etc basically quote all differences. Include photo’s of any similar vehicles even ones from
science-fiction especially anything that pre-dates the KTM. Also make it clear that you’re not “passing off” your creation as theirs or claiming it
has any link to them
Finally very firmly but politely finish by stating that because no part of your creation makes any use of their intellectual property and because
you’re not intentionally or inadvertently passing off your work as theirs you will be continuing with your project.
9 out of 10 you will hear nothing more, if they continue to push then you have to decide whether the fight is worth it.
[Edited on 5/2/11 by orton1966]
Agree 100%
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interestedparty
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 05:57 PM |
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In my opinion a change in the design of the bodywork (he's already got the chassis, tub etc so a lot of the work is already done) has got to be
a good thing. Not because of the copyright issues, but because of the appearance issues, the only way to go from the xbow is up.
As some day it may happen that a victim must be found,
I've got a little list-- I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed-- who never would be missed!
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Alex_The_Educated_Novice
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 08:42 PM |
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Here's a quick suggestion: draw up some designs of your own and begin testing the market with them, whilst calling KTM's bluff on the
intellectual property problem in the manner detailed earlier. If the new design goes down better, and the cost of tooling is satisfactory, you can go
down that route whether KTM have any follow up or not. You could still use the "the car that scared KTM" press angle, too. If KTM
don't have a legal leg to stand on, you're free to take whichever route you like.
KTM have this image as the easy-going, free-riding, adrenaline-hungry 'little' company from Austria. But does anyone else remember their
involvement in Long Way Round? Not exactly game, where they?
Oh dear, I promised myself when I joined up I wouldn't do any "well, I'd do this..." posts. Sorry...
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stuleah
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 09:29 PM |
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Thanks again for the opinions, we have now built a new chassis and bought the materials to mould a new body. The comments above have seriously got us
thinking about doing a letter.
We have been looking at doing a more radical Audi R8 style front but keeping it within the style it is. WITHOUT looking like a Xbow. I will post
some pics as soon as i can.
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Alex_The_Educated_Novice
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| posted on 8/2/11 at 09:51 PM |
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Sounds good!
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/2/11 at 12:03 AM |
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Like Orton said the first contact is to scare you. Most people will read the letter they sent you, think something along the lines of "Oh noes a
big company is going to send their team of solicitors to drag me away and bend me over" and promptly bow down. Ask them politely where the
breaches are and then you'll know what to change
I can see where they're coming from with the similarity though, might I suggest reshaping the cycle wings into the body so they look more like
part of the shell? It might well be a bit more aerodynamic too.
Still, I like it 
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snapper
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| posted on 12/2/11 at 07:12 AM |
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caterham successfully sued Westfield thus the pre post litigation adheres sometimes seen, I believe they also litigated Robin Hood for there S3
Monocoque, what the specific details were I don't know, however both manufacturers modified there design and to this day still manufacture 7
alike cars.
I therefor think that you would have to do little to get round the current threat of litigation.
I would hope the collective Locistbuilder brains could now get together especially those with legal training and thrash out a solution.
I do very much hope that you can carry on manufacturing your unique kit car.
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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