ettore bugatti
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| posted on 23/8/20 at 07:08 PM |
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Fair enough if you more after a 2 seater sportsbreak.
It was just because the orginal kitten and the Beta HPE were four seaters and have a more forward A post and space after the door. That made me
wonder on the a pillar position.
If looks right it is right
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 23/8/20 at 08:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Fair enough if you more after a 2 seater sportsbreak.
It was just because the orginal kitten and the Beta HPE were four seaters and have a more forward A post and space after the door. That made me
wonder on the a pillar position.
If looks right it is right
Sorry for the confusion. I'm confused so I can imagine how everyone else must feel. Plans have changed frequently down the line and you are
absolutely right, my original objective was to create a sports brake based on the Lancia HPE which of course is a four seater. That was binned with
the pivotal decision (perhaps not one of my best but there were solid reasons behind it) to use a Fiesta MK4 windscreen. You quite rightly pointed
out its height and width and questioned whether its suitability. To make it work, I have, as you pointed out, had to widen the track and to design a
body around it which took me away from the original concept. Moving the A post rearwards meant it had to be a two seater and that's where we are
now.
I have concerns about the height of the waist, the point where the screen and A post angle backwards. It looks high but with the seat put in it needs
to be that height to give sufficient headroom because of the steep rake on the screen. Even with over 7.5 inches of ground clearance, it still only
stands 50 inches from the ground, about the same as an MGB.
Whether it will look right, well, I hope so but won't really get an idea until the buck takes shape.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 24/8/20 at 12:56 PM |
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Using Chris' sketch as an imported canvas into Fusion 360 I've scaled it and put in offset dimensions. This will give me datum points to
make up some sweeps and the longitudinal stringer of the wire frame buck. This should get the side profile under way but more information will be
needed for the front and top views.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 24/8/20 at 01:49 PM |
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Buy a copy of H-Point: The Fundamentals of Car Design and Packaging
Well worth the money to put in the project and your son is probably gonna love it.
Have you check the ingress and exit of the door opening?
I normally end up with a door length of about 110cm when designing two door cars, I'm also concerned that the front of driver and passenger head
is a bit too close to the top of the windscreen frame. Have you done test sit with the seats?
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 24/8/20 at 03:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Buy a copy of H-Point: The Fundamentals of Car Design and Packaging
Well worth the money to put in the project and your son is probably gonna love it.
Have you check the ingress and exit of the door opening?
I normally end up with a door length of about 110cm when designing two door cars, I'm also concerned that the front of driver and passenger head
is a bit too close to the top of the windscreen frame. Have you done test sit with the seats?
Many thanks for the book recommendation. Well worth a punt.
Before the bracing went in which currently prevents putting a seat in, we did try one in and when sitting, eye level is about half way up the screen.
I'm using MX5 seats. I don't remember that the top rail was a concern but a valid point and well worth re-checking; thank you. The only
way to achieve a 110cm door is to move the A post by 116mm which I really don't want to do. The B post is back as far as it will go. Apart from
ease of access is there any other reason apart from aesthetics to have it that wide?
[Edited on 24/8/20 by John Bonnett]
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 24/8/20 at 05:22 PM |
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To be honest it looks ok in the photo, is the seat back next to the b post?
Just look whether you can put a sun visor down without smacking your head and if you can lean forwards without hitting the windscreen.
That length of 110cm is just what you roughly get if take in account the access with some space to slot a briefcase behind the seat. It is offcourse
possible to go shorter when the height is raised, but then you end with a door of a van/ truck.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 24/8/20 at 05:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
To be honest it looks ok in the photo, is the seat back next to the b post?
Just look whether you can put a sun visor down without smacking your head and if you can lean forwards without hitting the windscreen.
That length of 110cm is just what you roughly get if take in account the access with some space to slot a briefcase behind the seat. It is offcourse
possible to go shorter when the height is raised, but then you end with a door of a van/ truck.
EB you've raised doubts in my mind so I'l risk a bit of movement and cut out one of the bracing struts that prevents a seat from going in.
I'll try sitting in the seat again and reassess.
The A post could come forward by about 110mm which was where it was before I moved it to its current spot. The reason I moved it back by that amount
was to accommodate the bit of scuttle from the Fiesta that has the wipers and heater air intake without any clashes with the wiper motor and engine.
Using this piece off the Fiesta will be very helpful.
However, one benefit of moving the A post towards the front would be to bring the gear lever within easier reach.
[Edited on 24/8/20 by John Bonnett]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 27/8/20 at 12:34 PM |
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I've just moved the A post assembly into what I hope will be its final resting place which is in fact where it was before I decided to move it
back 118mm. This was to allow room for the bit of the Fiesta scuttle with the wiper arms on it and prevent it from overhanging the engine but
it's back where it was and I'll just have to work round that. It certainly puts the screen in a better place in relation to the seat and
also the gear lever. So a compromise but on balance the best option. Sitting in the seat, there's about 8 inches between head and windscreen
frame so ample room to bring a sun visor down without hitting the old bonse.
EB the door will be no more than 90mm, less than the 110 that you prefer but the best I can do.
[Edited on 27/8/20 by John Bonnett]
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HowardB
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| posted on 27/8/20 at 12:53 PM |
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quote:
that looks good to the eye
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again  and goes zoom)
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 27/8/20 at 01:11 PM |
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Thank you Howard, it does to me too. As EB said if it looks right it is right.
I'm just waiting for the threaded inserts for the upper seat belt mounts which I'll weld in to the B posts before finally fixing them in
position.
There's been a lot of messing about to reach this point but the stages had to be gone through and all the options explored to find the best one
and I think we have and that's where we're at now.
I've been putting it off because it's an awful job but I do have to start stripping bits off the Fiesta, principally the dashboard and
steering column which I need to fit before being able to proceed much further.
I haven't given up trying to draw up the car in Fusion but I'm finding it damn difficult but nonetheless fascinating. I've a long
way to go but progress has been made.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 28/8/20 at 05:21 PM |
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I've extended the sill components to suit the new position of the A posts and drilled some more lightening holes. I haven't weighed the
discs that have been removed but the tubes do feel appreciably lighter and in my opinion look better for it. Academic of course because they'll
be encapsulated in the sills. Before finally installing, the B posts will have 7/16"UNF threaded inserts welded in at eye level for the top seat
belt mounts. I'm very close now to having the whole frame assembly welded in place and putting that part of the build to bed.
I'm not sure if this is going to be possible but I'm hoping to be able to cut out from the Fiesta not only the scuttle that houses the
wiper arm spindles but also the adjoining section containing the screen bed and the dashboard fixings. I'm thinking about removing a section of
the screen frame that I formed and letting in the part from the Fiesta. It probably won't work for one reason or another but it might, and if
it does it will be really helpful in providing built in top fixings for the dashboard.
[Edited on 28/8/20 by John Bonnett]
[Edited on 28/8/20 by John Bonnett]
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 29/8/20 at 12:32 PM |
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I haven't worked with Fusion before, but the T-spline modeling looks interesting enough. Look like if the modelling is approached as building a
3d grid/ wire buck/ sections, the end result should be pretty good.
I think 90cm wide doors make sense here, because on a clean sheet paper design I would put the B post behind the seats. So that would easily explain
the extra 20cm.
I guess you need split the firewall of the Fiesta in a upper and lower section since your windscreen is more angled than on the Fiesta. The Quantum
2+2 and H4 were Fiesta based, so maybe you can steal/ be inspired by their solutions. Would the Fiesta heater assembly be in the way with the
bellhousing?
https://www.quantumowners.club/images/ZetecConversion/p4100114.jpg
[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]
[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 29/8/20 at 01:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
I haven't worked with Fusion before, but the T-spline modeling looks interesting enough. Look like if the modelling is approached as building a
3d grid/ wire buck/ sections, the end result should be pretty good.
I think 90cm wide doors make sense here, because on a clean sheet paper design I would put the B post behind the seats. So that would easily explain
the extra 20cm.
I guess you need split the firewall of the Fiesta in a upper and lower section since your windscreen is more angled than on the Fiesta. The Quantum
2+2 and H4 were Fiesta based, so maybe you can steal/ be inspired by their solutions. Would the Fiesta heater assembly be in the way with the
bellhousing?
https://www.quantumowners.club/images/ZetecConversion/p4100114.jpg
[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]
[Edited on 29/8/20 by ettore bugatti]
EB, my thanks.
My grandson who is in full time education enrolled on the Autodesk Design Academy and by good fortune he uses my computer (ha ha) so I now have access
to a lot of tutorials which is what has enabled me to get to the point I'm at now. A huge improvement but a long way from being able to produce
a detailed and useful model.
I'm questioning some of the dimensions I'm working with, in particular the height of the finished scuttle but this should become clearer
once the Fiesta parts are transferred over and I can take some solid measurements.
My hope is that I'll be able to use some of the firewall and the whole heater assembly including the aircon matrix which would be a huge bonus
with the correct pipe bores as well as a cost saving in avoiding having to buy an after market heater/aircon unit. It looks promising is all I can say
at the moment.
My screen at 30 degrees is raked a little more than the Fiesta but by only a bit. Some time ago I did put the Fiesta on level ground and take a
measurement but I've forgotten what it was exactly but in the range 32-35 degrees I believe. Whether this will make for any difficulties in
transferring over the parts remains to be seen.
Thank you for the link to the Quantum site. A very good thought bearing in mind the Fiesta base.
[Edited on 29/8/20 by John Bonnett]
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 7/9/20 at 01:40 PM |
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Not a huge amount of progress, well not any really on any front other than I've just ordered a propshaft from Bailey Morris which should arrive
some time next week. A nice company to do business with in my experience.
I welded in a couple of diagonal braces across the corners of the B post and horizontal tube to the centre of the windscreen rail. What I hadn't
foreseen was the restriction in headroom they would cause so they've got to come out which is a bit annoying but my own stupid fault. The roof
will have curvature and this is what will provide adequate headroom. I've also placed the seat belt mounts too high up on the B post I fear.
Nothing that can't be rectified but definitely not one of my best week's work.
There will be a lot of cutting out to be done from the donor Fiesta and I'm currently considering buying an R-Tech plasma cutter which should be
more precise than a disc on an angle grinder. R-Tech are not cheap but they are made down here in the west country, offer great support and a decent
warranty.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 14/9/20 at 06:21 PM |
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Just one week from placing the order with Bailey Morris the propshaft arrived, great service and very well made. Above all, it fits! I never doubted
them, it was my measurements!
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HowardB
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| posted on 14/9/20 at 06:35 PM |
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ooo - exciting progress!
looks really good
thank you for posting the updates
Howard
Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 14/9/20 at 06:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by HowardB
ooo - exciting progress!
looks really good
thank you for posting the updates
I have to say that I'm pretty excited about it too Howard. The bodyworks may take second place to getting it plumbed, wired and running.
There's nothing like being able to start the engine to give the old spirits a lift and push the project on. They'll be some major costs
with the management system but it's a one off cost and the end result will release a bit more power from the engine rather than staying with the
standard system which I am sure works perfectly well and a whole lot cheaper.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 22/9/20 at 01:01 PM |
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I've drawn out the side roof profile full size from the drawing which was imported and scaled into Fusion 360 and transposed it onto 4mm ply.
When offered up to the frame the rear overhang looks enormous and far too great. But the dimensions seem to work on the sketch.
Perhaps the front has to be done in the same way so that the rear is in context.
[Edited on 22/9/20 by John Bonnett]
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 22/9/20 at 04:46 PM |
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You could use it as the centre spline and have a more curved back end (from top view) compared to a flat back end.
An easy way to translate proportions and scale is to work with with wheel diameters.
Since you are using 185/60R13 with a diameter of 552mm and the Ferrari has roughly 710mm diameter wheels. So that's 23% difference
So the rear overhang of a FF of 1017mm should be about 780mm overhang on your build, I think your earlier drawing had a overhang closer to that.
Wheelbase: 3 or 2 4/5x wheel
Overhang: ½ rear and front
Door line: 1/3
Roof: ¾ or 4/5
There might be some overlap with SUV proportions as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeov0cvvrY
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 22/9/20 at 08:29 PM |
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Looks like a foot out and doesn't match the sketch
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 22/9/20 at 08:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Looks like a foot out and doesn't match the sketch
Spot on. The final curve is wrong. I'm not sure how but it should be more towards the vertical. I'll have a play with it tomorrow.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 22/9/20 at 08:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
You could use it as the centre spline and have a more curved back end (from top view) compared to a flat back end.
An easy way to translate proportions and scale is to work with with wheel diameters.
Since you are using 185/60R13 with a diameter of 552mm and the Ferrari has roughly 710mm diameter wheels. So that's 23% difference
So the rear overhang of a FF of 1017mm should be about 780mm overhang on your build, I think your earlier drawing had a overhang closer to that.
Wheelbase: 3 or 2 4/5x wheel
Overhang: ½ rear and front
Door line: 1/3
Roof: ¾ or 4/5
There might be some overlap with SUV proportions as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEeov0cvvrY
Thank you EB once again. I needed something to start with and now I have the shape can be adjusted.
I cannot go up any larger with the wheels because of the already high diff ratio which is something like 3.2 so we're stuck with them. I could
drop the height of the frame but this would have a knock-on effect with the Fiesta parts that I'd really like to use if possible.
I get sweaty palms with any mention of SUVs so I really do need to keep right out of their territory.
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ettore bugatti
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| posted on 23/9/20 at 12:49 PM |
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Using wheel diameters is only an indication off course.
I dont think a 295/40R21 tyre is something you want to incorporate.
I mentioned SUV, because the rear overhang might work for a shooting brake too and they manage a similar poportion wheel diameter to overall height as
you might be working too.
I'm not suggesting designing a SUV. The ground clearance and mass above the wheels is not shared with a shooting brake.
2 1/4 wheel diameter would give you about 124cm total height, with a ground clearance of 12cm.
There is 112cm of body height, where about 37cm is for the side windows and 74cm for the belt line.
Dont be too fixated on these dimensions, you can easily deviate by 5cm if it looks right.
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John Bonnett
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| posted on 23/9/20 at 05:37 PM |
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Had a go at reshaping the lower curve and this I think looks better. Difficult to see it in context without any front bodywork and of course, the
screen and scuttle projects forward and is significantly lower than the point where the A post vertical meets the screen pillar which gives the
impression of a very high waist.
The rear overhang from the wheel centre is 830mm, a bit more than EB was suggesting but the curve seems to work.
Overall height from the ground is currently 1290mm or 50.7 inches but the car isn't sitting at ride height. Ground clearance is 9 inches at the
front and nearly 8 at the rear. This should come down to about 7 inches front and rear or 178mm which would bring the overall height to about 1250mm
or 49 inches which is what I was hoping for.
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 23/9/20 at 09:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by John Bonnett
I saw this image and instantly thought of the austin allegro profile
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