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Author: Subject: Some ST170/Zetec engine questions
mtechmatt

posted on 9/2/14 at 03:32 PM Reply With Quote
John, cheers, getting there









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Stoxs

posted on 9/2/14 at 10:46 PM Reply With Quote
i thought this was a small unit?
Dont think i will fit that big red box under my dash!!!

only joking matt.

If you are looking for a bare engine in a car to try it on i could bring mine down?

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mtechmatt

posted on 10/2/14 at 08:41 AM Reply With Quote
hehe its designed to go on the passenger seat. The extra power is worth the space lol

We will be trailing the unit on a car from Chester Sports Cars, they will be supplying the ST170 variant exclusively after launch so be sure to peg your interest with them...

Definitely the more the merrier though as you cant beat loads of testers covering loads of miles in a short time






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Rob Allison

posted on 12/2/14 at 10:56 PM Reply With Quote
Got a delete kit fitted and running. The engine is far smoother and revs better than with a switched off/on vct.
Still trying to find the best point for the cam timing. Without changing the cam duration big power gains are limited.
But using the VCT right will give more low down power. Also if your turboing the engine you can reduce the dynamic compression ration at high revs without the need to lower the actual static CR.

The box looks a good option. It would be to see how altering the cam angle does alter the power






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mtechmatt

posted on 13/2/14 at 07:18 PM Reply With Quote
Rob,

Indeed I am looking forward to actually doing the basemap calibration.

My intention is to use our dyno and do MANY runs at varying throttle % and varying Cam Positions (I will be able to 'fix' cam angle with the software during testing) and then plot these graphs over one another to give the optimum setup (pick the bet top end and low end settings etc for each throttle position/speed) for NA/carb'd ST170 engine cam profiling.

Will be very exciting and I hope to be on the dyno within 2 weeks with the beta units....

That and as you say with turbocharged cars for a mapper it is excellent.. no more DTI to find the best 'average locked position', just straight forward 'what works best for each throttle position/speed' on the dyno...

Matt

PS rob our gunea pig will be a carbed ST170, so will report the best 'average angle' for you to set the cam to (if yours is NA also), seeing as we will be doing lots of experimenting!

Cheers

[Edited on 13/2/14 by mtechmatt]






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Rob Allison

posted on 13/2/14 at 09:17 PM Reply With Quote
Look forward to it.

Yes mine is N/A, on Direct to head throttle bodies.






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Dave Bailey

posted on 13/2/14 at 09:23 PM Reply With Quote
Matt have you mapped the St 170 on a DTA s60? Looking for someone reasonably local to me to tune my kit car...

Dave B

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mtechmatt

posted on 13/2/14 at 10:07 PM Reply With Quote
Dave, sorry no I have not, if I am honest Im not too keen on DTAs software, although I am happy to help I would reccoemend a tuner more used to that particular ECU system...

Cheers,
Matt






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johnH20

posted on 14/2/14 at 04:47 PM Reply With Quote
Hi Matt, you may know the following in which case please ignore - but it was news to me.
At www.diyautotune.com/vvtuner/tuning/htm is a map developed with their controller and software for a 1.8 Mazda Mk 2. I would hazard a guess that it could prove pretty generic for similar 4 cylinder 16 valve engines. Your tests will prove or disprove this, we shall see.
To me it is interesting from several points of view, most obviously that when you get off idle and above 50 mPa load the map becomes more or less speed dependent only. If you are into Taguchi design of experiments this might offer you some shortcuts and save a lot of time.
Good luck and keep us posted.

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mtechmatt

posted on 15/2/14 at 06:52 PM Reply With Quote
John, indeed saw this a while ago.

The difference mainly is the Mazda uses a track and hold oil valve (there is no spring return) whereas the ST170 tries to return to 0 if the valve is closed...

But yes good pointers.

Also found on the St170 the VVT solenoid is not driven at all until 1320rpm by the OEM ECU

Matt






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Rob Allison

posted on 15/2/14 at 07:37 PM Reply With Quote
Will you be able to get the standard ecu cam angles on a plot






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johnH20

posted on 16/2/14 at 08:36 PM Reply With Quote
Rob, I would guess the only way of knowing what the standard OEM map looks like is by interrogating the OEM ECU. There are a lot of input variables and I guess the Strategy has more to do with emissions and fuel economy optimisation, especially in the low load regimes, than actual power/torque maximisation. Until recently I was under the impression that the Ford EEC V could not be read/modified but I have discovered that is not the case. There is a forum - www.EECTuning.com and even a book about it. Just shows how little I know - but I am trying to learn.
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baz-R

posted on 18/2/14 at 11:16 AM Reply With Quote
i have had information that updated codes are there for Genuine ms3 and possibly 2 (ford vvc cam trigger patterns) are there to run st170 vvc with pwm channel.

been as im already getting 165bhp form my own 1800 silvertop zetec setup(std head,valves etc.) i cant see the point of changing it all at the moment unless somthing comes up realy cheap

ps: please dont beleave anyone saying the inlet patterns (gasket area) are the same between normal zetec and st170's there is an big missmatch in port hight!

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mtechmatt

posted on 25/2/14 at 07:25 PM Reply With Quote
Chaps,

we have it working

We have just done a data plot of standard cam angles on a full power pull in 3rd gear.. Letting the OEM ECU control the VVT and us just record the angles.

Will post the graph shortly.

You will be impressed...






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me!

posted on 25/2/14 at 07:34 PM Reply With Quote
Well done- I'm interested to see the results!
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mtechmatt

posted on 25/2/14 at 08:01 PM Reply With Quote
The definitive ST170 VVT information post...

http://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=11






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Rob Allison

posted on 25/2/14 at 08:48 PM Reply With Quote
Any reason for the plot stopping at 5000 rpm

Also does the cam move over a 45deg range or 60deg

[Edited on 25/2/14 by Rob Allison]






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mtechmatt

posted on 25/2/14 at 09:16 PM Reply With Quote
Appears to move over 45* We can move it further with direct control...

Plot carries on, stays level to 7k (excel for you!)






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johnH20

posted on 26/2/14 at 08:27 AM Reply With Quote
Brilliant work! I did not realise you would be able to directly measure the oem plot, I thought you were going to generate your own map from scratch. This obviously gives you a running start for future work. Great stuff, keep us posted.
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Jenko

posted on 26/2/14 at 09:53 AM Reply With Quote
Very interesting and great work....do you think there may be some 'emissions based' mapping for the cam also?.

What would be supper interesting is to see the same plot with the power / torque, this would illustrate how the timing changes the torque.

So, how would this system integrate with an omex 600?.....Are there many connections?....must admit...im interested.





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mtechmatt

posted on 26/2/14 at 11:42 AM Reply With Quote
Cheers guys...

As to the Omex 600.. it will work as it is completely independent.

You simply 'splice' into the crank sensor lines (as we did on the OEM car) and then connect the VVT solenoid and the cam sensor, thats it.The omex wont know its happening, only you will need to remap the omex (or whatever ECU your are running) to suit the now better 'breathing' engine.

You would then of course map the Omex using their software and our system using our software and USB, so you could have both tuning interfaces open at the same time, and thats it, done.

Definitely some emissions stuff in there. They fully advance the cam on over run.

Will be doing LOTs of dyno data and printouts over the coming days, to capture the OEM curves for differennt throttle positions, thus building our 3D basemap.

Matt






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big_wasa

posted on 26/2/14 at 12:13 PM Reply With Quote
I've guessed fora while that the cam remains fully retarded at tick over to reduce overlap there for stopping un burnt fuel escaping and keeping the emissions down at that rpm.
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Stoxs

posted on 26/2/14 at 08:26 PM Reply With Quote
Be intersting to see the difference between emmisson controlled cam angles and the raw power/torque curve.

I have only interest in one curve but understand its different for others!!

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mtechmatt

posted on 27/2/14 at 01:34 PM Reply With Quote
BIG UPDATE LOTS OF GRAPHS!

http://motorsport-electronics.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&a mp;t=11&p=16#p16






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daveb666

posted on 27/2/14 at 01:44 PM Reply With Quote
I'm a layman, so bear with me

I've currently got a 2.0 zetec running MBE and bike throttle bodies.

Is my understanding that I can fit this setup to an ST170 engine, but then tap in your VVT controller for the best of both worlds?





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